so far in line with what ive seen, bit of cash to train protesters how to protest.

my overarching contention is that Western economic ties are a valuable resource, and some number of people in Ukraine have desired to tie more strongly with the EU for a long time and move away from Russian influence. it's dollar and cents. so while we did stoke that fire in 2004, the fire was already lit. It's been lit since the moment the Berlin wall fell. Russia isn't a backwater 3rd world nation, but they can't provide the same level of prosperity as EU and the US.

but this whole situation stands in stark contrast to a situation like Iraq. where the pro-US/Western narrative was non-existent in the country. and still is for that matter. same with Afghanistan. it's a reason why the nation building projects we've attempted in the Middle east have been an abject failure. there was no fire started, we started it with bombs, then tried to be heroes for putting it out. it doesnt work. we've world built in asia, south/central america, eastern europe, and africa. all places where just a sprinkle of promise of western economic prosperity is most of the battle, and i'd say Ukraine was far closer to that than iraq. thus why i contend we weren't strictly instrumental to the coup, but rather a catalyst.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Jul 11 2023 11:15am

This is a commonly mentioned pro-coup talking point to validate the dissolution of a democratically elected government (with opposition literally running out of the country, a true sign of a democracy ). Politicians backtrack on things all the time. Just really interesting how we tend to assign a way bigger weight on stuff that aligns with our geopolitics interests. Really convenient. Obama ran on ending dumb wars, explicitly to pull us out of out of Afghanistan he didn't, Trump ran on building the wall, he didn't. Biden said we'd never send F-16s to the US and now he's backtracking on it. None of these would justify deposing an elected leader. Same lens should be applied to other democratic elections not on a whim be okay with banana republic-esque regime changes when it aligns with our interests.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Jul 11 2023 11:26am

i dont disagree with any of this, im confused if you think i do? i dont support the coup that happened, and i dont think it was democratic at all. but it did happen, and we were talking about shifting power dynamics and officials "flipping". i simply say most did because it was the prudent thing to do in the face of such a large wave. you seem to assert that many en masse were paid off by the CIA? correct me if im wrong. how many judges, generals, police, and politicians did we have to pay off? maybe that's the missing pentagon money, because it would for sure have taken many billions. and like flat earth airline pilots no one's talking. even in the midst of a war and knowing full well Russia would happily pay them to do an interview on RT detailing how they were swayed. i think occam's razor suggest were just fanned the flames of an existing pro-western minority, raised it to near 50% (they still lost, but it was such a wave that Yanukovyc had to make false promises to fall in line), then we just enjoyed the show as it all fell apart in February.

in terms of US international meddling this seems to me to be a remarkably cheap operation overall. we probably spent more weekly on ammo for Iraq than we spent total in Ukraine. yet are constantly referred to as not just instrumental, but causal.

Uh huh, it's different this time, basically. It is going to be such an immense step forward for humanity when your POS degenerate country finally implodes.

most people should be able to agree that Ukraine WAS moving ever westwards, pro-EU and pro-Nato. I don't think anyone strongly disagrees with this.

However, it is a fact that the US HAS carried out coups all over the world, for a protracted period of time. Do you agree with this fact, yes or no?
It is to my mind obvious that the US wanted Ukraine in Nato, and that the US were instrumental in both the 2014 coup and the lead up to this invasion by Russia.

Do you have any view on the Hunter Biden Laptop ? Surely, when you see that the US government, at the highest levels, were meeting with Ukrainian leaders, over a protracted period of time, that there is a degree of complicity here relating to enabling Ukraine, emboldening Ukraine to break away from Russia (remember now, from a Ukrainian standpoint, where they are pro-EU, breaking away from Russia is a no-brainer, I am not arguing this).



If you read what snipa said, there is nothing incorrect with what he said.

The US lends to virtually every country on the planet. I guess this can be construed as world building. But quite frankly its no different then "aiding" ukraine. Its not free aid.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jul 11 2023 11:57am

Yes there is, and what is correct is about as insightful as saying the sun is hot.

it is far easier to point to his other post. Anyway here is my view of the post:

1. so far in line with what ive seen, bit of cash to train protesters how to protest. <<-- clearly more then this, but if this is the least, then the fact remains that the US government was complicit in the coup, which undermines the notion of "the people rising up against tyranny".

2. my overarching contention is that Western economic ties are a valuable resource, <<-- completely agree
3. and some number of people in Ukraine have desired to tie more strongly with the EU for a long time and move away from Russian influence. << -- completely agree
4. it's dollar and cents. <<-- completely agree
5. so while we did stoke that fire in 2004,(2014?) the fire was already lit. It's been lit since the moment the Berlin wall fell. <<-- this supports the notion that converting Ukraine to the west was a long term goal, in my opinion.
6. Russia isn't a backwater 3rd world nation, but they can't provide the same level of prosperity as EU and the US. <<-- completely agree (note: the expressing "3rd world" is a redundant expression which should no longer be used).
7. but this whole situation stands in stark contrast to a situation like Iraq. where the pro-US/Western narrative was non-existent in the country. <<-- completely agree
8. ...and still is for that matter. same with Afghanistan. it's a reason why the nation building projects we've attempted in the Middle east have been an abject failure. << -- completely agree
9. ...there was no fire started, we started it with bombs, then tried to be heroes for putting it out. it doesnt work. << -- completely agree
10. we've world built in asia, south/central america, eastern europe, and africa. all places where just a sprinkle of promise of western economic prosperity is most of the battle, <<-- you send "aid to these countries. Its aid which is not "free".
11. and i'd say Ukraine was far closer to that than iraq. <<-- completely agree
12. thus why i contend we weren't strictly instrumental to the coup, but rather a catalyst. << -- I would contend the US was THE catalyst, noting there is ample evidence to support that this is the US modus operandi. There is no murmur of other countries (other then the US and Russia) playing tug of war with the governance of Ukraine.

I guess i should have tagged you here. anyway, we are where we are. If you believe that the US was not complicit or instrumental with what has happened, and where we are, that is your opinion. We don't have to agree.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jul 11 2023 12:09pm

yes of course we've carried out many coups. its just that most of the time our modus operandi is to EITHER pay off almost everyone in power and rule by proxy OR invade, destroy, rebuild. this is a very mild coup involvement for US standards. yet i get strawmanned with "what about IRAQ YOU MONSTER KIDS DIED" constantly in this thread. i'm not pro iraq war, im not pro US imperialism, im just stating the facts as i see them.

if i had to define THE CATALYST it's Yanukovyc abruptly ending EU trade talks. not the slightly better prepared protesters who rose up as a result. honestly the contrast between Russian business ties vs US/EU business ties is so stark that we wouldnt even need to pay oligarchs in cash, just say "yes we'll do business with you".

but lets say Yanukovyc tears up the trade talks, AND the us didnt pay to train protesters, does the coup still happen in your opinion? that's a KEY question.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Jul 11 2023 12:16pm

i agree that Yanukovyc abruptly ending EU trade talks was a tipping point, but understand, as we look at Georgia, the protests there were created by US forces. So while I can completely agree with you that there were masses of people in Ukraine that ever leaned westwards, it is my contention that the US was instrumental with the uprising, noting, again, this was straight out of the proverbial US playbook which they are using currently, in Georgia.

US politicians had no business being in Ukraine in 2014, stoking the masses. Its like Brexit, if you tell the masses something over and over, and say that everything will be great after something is changed/removed, when YOU KNOW that this is going to cause serious problems, you are not blameless when all hell breaks loose.

re: but lets say Yanukovyc tears up the trade talks, AND the us didnt pay to train protesters, does the coup still happen in your opinion? that's a KEY question. <<-- I dont see this as the key question. Ultimately the US was complicit and therefore we dont need to play guessing games of What If They Were Not Complicit.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jul 11 2023 12:32pm

Thoughs and Prayers to Americans sacrifying their healthcare & welfare for bringing Ukraine, a promising ressource, into EU. Along with massively helping in disabling russian mafia.

These 3 points are demolishing the "coup" designation made by russian propagandists:

- Yanukovich deliberately lied about joining EU / investments to get elected, then later turned back: protests were perfectly justified
- Yanukovich pro-russian secret police used paid thugs in an attempt to turn the protests into violent riots to proceed (and excuse) repression
- Constitutional vote: Ukraine’s parliament voted 328–0 (about 73% of its 447 members) to remove President Viktor Yanukovich

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Jul 11 2023 12:36pm