Quote (Mondain @ 4 Jul 2023 17:25)

why feed your soldiers into a meat grinder against an enemy you can't beat.

Zelenskyy should step down.

Quote (Malopox @ Jul 4 2023 02:39pm)

I’ll give it a go.

Crimea status is currently disputed as international community largely does not recognize the annexation of Crimea by Russia. As there is no effective legal way to make countries leave disputed land known to humanity except 1) outright invading and freeing the occupied land, 2) signing an agreement ceasing this land. As such this is will be the future and current status quo.

Russians claim it’s theirs due to historical reasons and security reasons however they did sign 1994 and 1997 memorandums which makes them in breach of those.

This might change if eg Russia “wins” this and signs a peace treaty that will force Ukraine to revoke territorial claims to Crimea and then if that peace treaty will be recognized by the international community (big if).

I have serious doubts if Ukraine is able to reclaim Crimea militarily as Russians will probably use tactical nukes to repel the invasion of the island. The only way for them to reclaim it is for current Russian govt to be removed and a treaty (similar to eg Brest-Litovsk treaty of 1918) signed by the successors. I don’t think this is realistic as unlike Nicholas II situation of 1917 - Putin has very high support in polls which I feel is genuine from my discussions with Russians.

There are plenty of disputed occupied territories in the world right now eg Northern Cyprus, Golan Heights, Diego Garcia etc. Which essentially poses the same challenge from international law perspective albeit most of them are a lot less known.

I’ve actually had a pretty interesting conversation with a Turk and a Cypriot over a barbecue few weeks ago drawing historical parallels between Northern Cyprus conflict and what is going on now.

Quote (fender @ Jul 4 2023 06:26pm)

the goal is NOT an invasion of russia and destruction of the entire russian army, but defeating the russian invaders and make them leave ukrainian territory.

the vietnamese did not destroy the entire american army, they just made it too costly to remain in their country.

you could have told the vietnamese to "stop feeding your soldiers into a meat grinder against an enemy you can't beat", but when it comes to defending your home, people don't tend to think that way - and again, beating the entire enemy army was never the goal.
a significant proportion of the ukrainian population would rather fight and potentially die than just let the russian invaders have their country, rape their women, steal their kids, and russify their nation... and i don't find it particularly difficult to understand why that is, given all the war crimes russia already committed so far...

Quote (babun1024 @ 4 Jul 2023 18:43)

There are no Vietkongs on Russian occupied territories to proceed with terror acts. Russia isn't sending 50k people among2 million fighters but 300k+ fighters against of whatever is left of the Ukrainian army in a clear separated line. You can't compare those situations at all. Even the supply lines are closer for Russians. Supplying Ukraine costs for Europe much more than Russia supplying its army around the corner.
So basically, nothing is going to change unless Ukraine attacks territories occupied by Russians. This what Ukraine tried with its counter-offensive this year. Well, not going well.

Quote (fender @ Jul 4 2023 07:37pm)

you once again missed the point. yes, it's not a perfect analogy, the situations are similar in some aspects and different in others. yes, supply lines are closer for russia, and even more importantly, domestic dissent is brutally suppressed and punished in russia - then again, the military power discrepancy between the two sides is smaller, and there is a broad consensus in the west to support ukraine in their fight for freedom.

my main argument was that you can't just debate people out of fighting for their freedom and the lives of their loved ones by telling them "the others army is stronger, you're just dying for nothing". it's an armchair general "argument" by dumb people who WANT to see pootin succeed with his invasion.
i completely understand why ukraine is putting up such a fierce resistance. the murdering, raping, child abducting invaders are not their brothers and won't treat them kindly if they just lay down their arms and let russia steal their land. the ethnic cleansings russia undertook in crimea, the resettlements and efforts to make it appear more russian, and retroactively support their claim to a region that russia previously agreed to being ukrainian clearly show that. the war crimes by russians in donbas further illustrated that.

Quote (babun1024 @ Jul 4 2023 07:17pm)

Nope, I didn't. I know well what a peace agreement implies. I am of the opinion, we, the west, need time to strengthen Nato and what's left of Ukraine. Getting rid of male Ukrainian population isn't going to solve anything.

Quote (ferdia @ Jul 4 2023 08:44pm)

From a western perspective, the obvious thing to do now is to do a peace deal, rebuild ukraine, give them nuclear weapons and then let them retake everything that was stolen from them. And if that creates WW3, well, no big deal right ?

purely from an abstract point of view.