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Jul 4 2023 08:16am
Quote (fender @ Jul 4 2023 02:41pm)
bahahaha... you can't even acknowledge simple facts that go against your "russia is so great, and the west is so bad" narrative, there isn't an ounce of kremlin copium you don't eagerly huff like the bot you are.

point is, russia DID push for the whole of ukraine, and ^ferdia's narrative about them "just" wanting parts of the country is complete bullshit.


No one has argued that Russia is so great and the West so bad and YOU KNOW IT

People have argued that NATO should wake up to the fact that their main adversary doesn't want an opposing military alliance on their doorstep and that makes complete sense...

Your trash excuses like "those countries wanted it, lol" won't work, any sensible person understands that, lol

Take your losses and GTFO of Ukraine, perhaps you'll be able to buy Russian natural gas again after a decade or so has passed ;)


Quote (Malopox @ Jul 4 2023 03:39pm)
I’ll give it a go.

Crimea status is currently disputed as international community largely does not recognize the annexation of Crimea by Russia. As there is no effective legal way to make countries leave disputed land known to humanity except 1) outright invading and freeing the occupied land, 2) signing an agreement ceasing this land. As such this is will be the future and current status quo.

Russians claim it’s theirs due to historical reasons and security reasons however they did sign 1994 and 1997 memorandums which makes them in breach of those.

This might change if eg Russia “wins” this and signs a peace treaty that will force Ukraine to revoke territorial claims to Crimea and then if that peace treaty will be recognized by the international community (big if).

I have serious doubts if Ukraine is able to reclaim Crimea militarily as Russians will probably use tactical nukes to repel the invasion of the island. The only way for them to reclaim it is for current Russian govt to be removed and a treaty (similar to eg Brest-Litovsk treaty of 1918) signed by the successors. I don’t think this is realistic as unlike Nicholas II situation of 1917 - Putin has very high support in polls which I feel is genuine from my discussions with Russians.

There are plenty of disputed occupied territories in the world right now eg Northern Cyprus, Golan Heights, Diego Garcia etc. Which essentially poses the same challenge from international law perspective albeit most of them are a lot less known.

I’ve actually had a pretty interesting conversation with a Turk and a Cypriot over a barbecue few weeks ago drawing historical parallels between Northern Cyprus conflict and what is going on now.


The ideal situation would be a neutral Ukraine recognized by NATO after which the occupied territories are handed back to Ukraine but I realize it's too late for that. Russia / Ukraine relations are destroyed for at least a generation

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Jul 4 2023 08:23am
This will be a delayed NATO membership
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Jul 4 2023 08:26am
Letting Ukraine join NATO might be the dumbest plan ever drafted.
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Jul 4 2023 08:28am
Quote (ferdia @ 4 Jul 2023 15:21)
If people want to talk about a peace proposal, the first place to start is Crimea.

Crimea acknowledged as Russian

Yes or No.

====

Happy to continue that conversation when someone answers that question.


Sure Half of Crimea and even 1 small part at East if you want... Along with accepting that Ukraine will join Nato to defend itself if attacked again.

Also: Russia paying reparations and war crimes.

Problem is: They will never do this, they tried to take Kyiv and Putin even said Ukraine does not exists, remember ? You can't change rusciism, you have no other choice than neutralizing it.
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Jul 4 2023 08:30am
Quote (Djunior @ 4 Jul 2023 16:16)
The ideal situation would be a neutral Ukraine recognized by NATO after which the occupied territories are handed back to Ukraine but I realize it's too late for that. Russia / Ukraine relations are destroyed for at least a generation


Well if we take lessons from three examples I mentioned - none has been given back even after declared illegal by the UN (no UN SC resolution though as these get vetoed) so I don’t think Russians would budge.

I don’t think neutrality is on the cards in Ukraine anymore as propaganda has stirred mutual hatred and Ukrainians will always feel threatened by their bigger neighbor from now on and therefore will try to join EU / bigger alliance unless some form of non-NATO guarantee is provided (eg China? Why would they be interested in enforcing it against eg future Russian attacks if they might happen).

I think the war will continue until either Ukraine gives up or some unforeseen military success beats Russians back and/or civil unrest in Russia removes Putin and his clique and their successors will cede conquered land to Ukraine.

I don’t see either of those options on the cards at the moment, however I think Ukraine is currently in a marginally worse position than Russia militarily, economically and from domestic politics standpoint. So this attrition war will go on for the time being with telegram channels being flooded with 4K videos of POV combat from the front.

This post was edited by Malopox on Jul 4 2023 08:33am
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Jul 4 2023 08:31am
Quote (UmadLoL @ 4 Jul 2023 17:26)
Letting Ukraine join NATO might be the dumbest plan ever drafted.


Then the detachment named after Long John Silver from a recent video will knock on Zelensky's liver with the question of what they were fighting for.
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Jul 4 2023 08:32am
Quote (Norlander @ 4 Jul 2023 16:31)
Then the detachment named after Long John Silver from a recent video will knock on Zelensky's liver with the question of what they were fighting for.


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Jul 4 2023 08:33am
Saw a video from last week, Ukraine armored vehicles and soldiers trapped in a minefield.

They were blowing up left and right, it was very extreme.

Apparently 3 months of nato training wasn't enough. Ukraine boys are basically being fed to a woodchipper.

How is it possible for them to be sent into mined areas with no knowledge on how to traverse or disarm mines....
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Jul 4 2023 08:36am
Quote (Mondain @ 4 Jul 2023 16:33)
Saw a video from last week, Ukraine armored vehicles and soldiers trapped in a minefield.

They were blowing up left and right, it was very extreme.

Apparently 3 months of nato training wasn't enough. Ukraine boys are basically being fed to a woodchipper.

How is it possible for them to be sent into mined areas with no knowledge on how to traverse or disarm mines....


You saw "1 video a week ago" and you take conclusions on the whole counter offensive ?
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Jul 4 2023 08:39am
Quote (Meanwhile @ 4 Jul 2023 17:36)
You saw "1 video a week ago" and you take conclusions on the whole counter offensive ?


It was uploaded by Ukrainian war correspondent, so it was for a purpose.
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