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Apr 27 2021 03:28pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Apr 27 2021 05:12pm)
This dismissive attitude toward your betters is why you'll always be a mall cop. Can't learn if you aren't willing to listen.



Lmao your sad sack ain’t better than me, only a pathetic individual would state that.
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Apr 27 2021 03:48pm
Quote (Duckling @ Apr 27 2021 04:28pm)
Lmao your sad sack ain’t better than me, only a pathetic individual would state that.


I am unconcerned with what a mall cop thinks is pathetic.
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Apr 27 2021 03:54pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Apr 27 2021 05:48pm)
I am unconcerned with what a mall cop thinks is pathetic.



That’s your problem
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Apr 28 2021 06:05am
Quote (Duckling @ Apr 27 2021 04:54pm)
That’s your problem


no that's cinnibun's problem

Quote (ofthevoid @ Apr 27 2021 03:55pm)
I gave you two recent examples of spending that paint a pretty clear picture of party spending patterns. You refuse to acknowledge that and just keep conveniently ignoring and now want to compare old fiscal conservatism vs this current iteration? Like lol.

Platforms evolve, no shit, but I'm trying to be consistent in my comparisons instead of holding a retarded perspective that budgets & spending plans with differences that add up to hundreds of billions if not trillions are all the same because both want to spend so both are not fiscally conservative. Like maybe you're just unable to process numbers once they get to a certain digit count so it's all the same to you? idk


ive acknowledged it in every post. you have been the won writing off factors, not me. you dumbed down the complex situation into 2 points, not me.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Apr 28 2021 06:06am
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Apr 28 2021 06:49am
Quote (bogie160 @ Apr 27 2021 01:34pm)
The Tea Party was a ~3-4 year movement that encompassed one wing of the Republican party. You are extrapolating that to a half-century or more of political thought. American conservatives, historically, have been pro-growth and pro-business. Pro-growth has meant an opposition to regulation and opposition to tax increases. Reagan, for instance, did not oppose either Social Security or Medicare. Both programs are popular (unfortunately so, given their long-term financial short-falls) with Republicans and Democrats alike.

Republicans have spent the last few weeks working with Manchin and others on achieving realistic, measured infrastructure investment. They've spent a great deal of time criticizing Biden's spending plan for what it is, large, irresponsible, and indiscriminate pay-off to Democrat-aligned "green" business interests. They've spent a great deal of time identifying the real world economic costs to handicapping American access to energy. The current "meat ban" debacle is the result of a study which indicated that meat consumption would have to fall precipitously in order to achieve significant (~50%) reductions in carbon emissions. Biden supports a 50% reduction in carbon emissions, and so its reasonable to hear how Biden plans to achieve the latter without the former. I doubt you are getting this context from the Daily Show, so perhaps you need to reevaluate your news consumption.

I don't like the term "culture war". We are talking about the chilling effects of censorship on public and private speech. The racializing of American politics. Fundamental attacks on the legitimacy of the government to enforce the law and maintain order. These things clearly matter, have mattered, and will continue to matter.

A few years ago, there was a debate on whether mainstream news had left-wing bias. Allegations that Twitter and other social media outlets were "shadow-banning" were decried as conspiratorial. It is now commonly understood that the mainstream outlets are hopelessly compromised, their repeated editorial failures have been well-documented, and social media censorship is acknowledged as a matter of course. Moving from denial towards acceptance is progress. Too many conservatives were, and some still are, in denial about the reality of the situation they face. As the administration said a day or so ago, "words matter", and it is not a light or trivial thing to undo, undermine, and destroy the centuries of intellectual thought and history upon which this country has been founded.


Sure, American conservatism is more than just low spending and smaller government, but to abandon those core ideas under Trump, and continue to ignore them under a Democratic president who is passing trillions of new spending, represents a fundamental break with the past.

Right-wing media is not focused on the efforts of some Republicans to craft an infrastructure bill. Politicians who actually try to get meaningful legislation done do not get invited on Tucker or Hannity. Are you trying to argue that Fox News and others on the right are fairly representing the meat ban story? All the Daily Show did was splice up some clips, which is consistent with other right-wing reaction to the story.

Cancel culture, Big Tech platforms enforcing the rules people agreed to signing up, a more racially sensitive and aware politics and society, a concern about bad law enforcement. These things do matter, but I don't know that they matter more than a massive increase in federal spending, and I'm not sure how Republicans are supposed to effectively respond legislatively to these issues. It seems like they just play pundit. People applauded Trump for standing up to the darkies kneeling during the anthem... did that manage to limit the behavior? They've brought up the Big Tech guys in front of Congress to yell at them for years... what got done under Trump? What can Josh Hawley do to change people's minds about not wanting to see darkies get murdered by police? I'm sure your response will be "well, they can do X, Y, and Z", but you'd have to explain why they didn't under Trump, how they can do these things now, and whether those actions will change the direction of these issues in any significant way.

I don't know where you get your news or commentary from, but the idea that everybody, or even the majority of people on the center or left, accepts liberal media bias and "tech censoring conservatives" is simply not true.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Apr 27 2021 02:34pm)
It's hard to argue with someone that doesn't want to acknowledge basic civics such as that Congress is responsible for spending and creating budgets.

The only thing we've solidified today is Trump is still the focal point of your existence and regardless of issue or topic, you gravitate towards talking about him.


Quote (Thor123422 @ Apr 27 2021 02:47pm)
It's hard to argue with someone that doesn't want to acknowledge basic civics such as that Congress cannot pass spending or create a budget without the president's signature unless they secure a veto-proof majority.


This.

Do you not follow American politics at all? You think the president has nothing to do with spending, that they're just sitting in the White House passively awaiting Congress to send them whatever it feels like?

Trump was president for 4 years, so when people on a political forum discuss which party is more fiscally conservative, the guy who signs the bills gets brought up. If you're triggered by that, you should probably go to a different forum.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Apr 27 2021 02:51pm)
It's like we live in dual realities.

One party is saying spend 600b another 2T this is the modern reality I see.

Fiscal conservatism = low taxes, low spending. Both of these are consistent with what we've seen in the last couple of years being pushed by republicans.

Fiscal conservatism may want to achieve a balanced budget by lowering both those things but that's not the central goal.

If that was the central goal we can have 80% taxes with matched spending and end up with a balanced budget but that would be literally the antithesis of what fiscal conservatism is trying to do.


1. Republicans do not want low spending. They just want to increase spending less than Democrats.
2. I'm not sure I've ever heard conservative intellectuals speak about fiscal conservatism without concern about the deficit and national debt.
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Apr 28 2021 07:11am
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 28 2021 08:49am)


1. Republicans do not want low spending. They just want to increase spending less than Democrats.
2. I'm not sure I've ever heard conservative intellectuals speak about fiscal conservatism without concern about the deficit and national debt.


...

So they want lower spending than the democrats? At least we're making some progress.

So in a two-party system where one party says spend x and the other party says spend 2x, which party is fiscally conservative comparatively speaking?

Once again it's the mechanism of how you accomplish some of these things.

When have conservatives been for higher taxes in recent history? When have conservatives been for higher spending (excluding obvious things like the military) in recent history?

They always want these lower relative to democrats. Can you point me to some of these fiscal conservative intellectuals that are saying double taxes so we reach a balanced budget or are they consistently saying to lower spending?

Like this is such observable reality that you arguing against it is mighty stupid.
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Apr 28 2021 07:24am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Apr 28 2021 08:11am)
...

So they want lower spending than the democrats? At least we're making some progress.

So in a two-party system where one party says spend x and the other party says spend 2x, which party is fiscally conservative comparatively speaking?

Once again it's the mechanism of how you accomplish some of these things.

When have conservatives been for higher taxes in recent history? When have conservatives been for higher spending (excluding obvious things like the military) in recent history?

They always want these lower relative to democrats. Can you point me to some of these fiscal conservative intellectuals that are saying double taxes so we reach a balanced budget or are they consistently saying to lower spending?

Like this is such observable reality that you arguing against it is mighty stupid.


Imagine posting for pages, where people admit over and over that one party spends less than the other, and still being here pages later trying to beat the same dead horse as if people didnt admit it all along.

you just keep saying the same simplistic things over and over, being told "yes, but thats only part of the picture" then you come back again and act like people dont see that part of the picture.

you have the attention to nuance of Rainman lately lol. being biased is fine, acting like you're not getting through to others with simple points is just sad tho.
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Apr 28 2021 07:31am
Quote (thesnipa @ Apr 28 2021 09:24am)
Imagine posting for pages, where people admit over and over that one party spends less than the other, and still being here pages later trying to beat the same dead horse as if people didnt admit it all along.

you just keep saying the same simplistic things over and over, being told "yes, but thats only part of the picture" then you come back again and act like people dont see that part of the picture.

you have the attention to nuance of Rainman lately lol. being biased is fine, acting like you're not getting through to others with simple points is just sad tho.


I've demonstrated over and over what fiscal conservatism is about while you keep trying to change the definition even though we can look at observable reality and see what I'm talking about is practiced.

There were communist countries that ran balanced budgets and didn't have deficit spending at certain times. By your contorted expansion then that would qualify as fiscal consrvatism.

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Apr 28 2021 07:31am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Apr 28 2021 09:11am)
...

So they want lower spending than the democrats? At least we're making some progress.

So in a two-party system where one party says spend x and the other party says spend 2x, which party is fiscally conservative comparatively speaking?

Once again it's the mechanism of how you accomplish some of these things.

When have conservatives been for higher taxes in recent history? When have conservatives been for higher spending (excluding obvious things like the military) in recent history?

They always want these lower relative to democrats. Can you point me to some of these fiscal conservative intellectuals that are saying double taxes so we reach a balanced budget or are they consistently saying to lower spending?

Like this is such observable reality that you arguing against it is mighty stupid.


Quote (IceMage @ Apr 27 2021 01:14pm)
This is an interesting discussion.

If you look at the deficit under previous presidents, it's obvious Democrats in practice are more fiscally conservative than Republicans. That said, it's partly true because Republicans apply pressure under Democratic presidents to get spending under control.

But Democrats want to spend significantly more, and even though Republicans cutting taxes is fiscally irresponsible, Democrats don't manage to raise taxes, even though they want to. So in the end, if we're faced with a situation of full Republican control vs full Democratic control, Republicans would probably run a lower deficit. But they aren't fiscal conservatives.


In my first post responding to you, I acknowledge Republicans want less spending, would run lower deficits if in full control compared with Democrats, yet aren't fiscally conservative because I'm not basing the assessment on whether they are as fiscally liberal as Democrats.

Conservative intellectuals want smaller government. They want to lower the deficit, while lowering taxes and spending. This has been the case as long as I've followed politics. To slash taxes with no regard to how it affects the deficit is fiscally irresponsible. The position that the deficit doesn't matter is not a fiscally conservative position.
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Apr 28 2021 07:46am
Quote (thesnipa @ Apr 28 2021 09:24am)
Imagine posting for pages, where people admit over and over that one party spends less than the other, and still being here pages later trying to beat the same dead horse as if people didnt admit it all along.

you just keep saying the same simplistic things over and over, being told "yes, but thats only part of the picture" then you come back again and act like people dont see that part of the picture.

you have the attention to nuance of Rainman lately lol. being biased is fine, acting like you're not getting through to others with simple points is just sad tho.



At least Rainman can count.
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