Do you believe if I told you this and this is in my opinion.
If Nato is not longer Nato and it is an alliance of a EU army without the five eyes being involved. I don't think Russia would have kick up such a fuss.
And when i mention a EU defense force, it is only for EU members at the moment.

"It's the rape victim's fault that her face was mauled, she shouldn't have fought back, should just have let it happen."



If Ukraine ultimately loses this war and loses its sovereignty, it will not have been worth it. If they can regain some of the lost territory, say back to the pre-2022 lines, and defend their sovereignty in the long-run, then it will have been worth it.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jun 4 2023 12:32pm

You guys that have never took a step in Ukraine keep clinging to this false reality of what life in Ukraine was prior to 2014 when for decades they were Russia/USSR aligned and it was largely symbiotic, and some of us that have lived there, have relatives from there know this first-hand. There's a few of us here from eastern Europe, Norlander, I, maybe few others I'm missing that we know what life really was like. That's why when you and the mainstream media paint this as a binary between war or having some slave-like existence under Russia's sphere it's completely farfetched. The thing is, war in this context only makes sense if the enemy is painted as bad as it can be and if the alternative to war is literal genocide with slave masters raping your women and whatever other barbaric things you want to think of then yeah war would 100% make sense.

I rather Ukrainians have their lives, their fathers, etc. rather than some parcel of land that none of us ever been or ever would go in our lives. Even if they win, reclaiming the Donbass they will objectively be worse off in every possible way compared to lets say 2010.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Jun 4 2023 12:55pm

Well, there are some people on this thread that lecture me that Singapore is a dictator led state with no freedoms, Hong Kong is now a dictatorship because of what they did to the "protestors" ( note that I went through 2014 / 2019 protest first hand and stay right next to where all the protest starts), China is a "shit hole" poor country no freedom and human rights etc etc .

I am not surprise that you will get those comments though. Are there human right abuses in those places i mentioned above ? Definitely as with all countries, I wouldn't mention who they are,you probably know them.

This post was edited by Hamsterbaby on Jun 4 2023 01:04pm

Just ask Moldova and the Baltics to bend over while your at it.

Appeasement doesn't work. Stop shilling.

I mean so much of our reality is shaped by stuff we read or things we see online, and honestly people overestimate their ability to discern that so much of it is agenda. Like during my graduate degree I had a lot of Chinese classmates and I remember asking them questions about life in China from like a freedoms or oppression perspective and they just looked at me like I was asking some really dumb questions and my American views of realities in China weren't actually consistent with what they've lived through.

I understand there are a lot of POV's and I'm sure some people from there may say yes the government oppressed me or from my experience XYZ is true but what we see online and some of the narratives that are adopted should be always viewed with skepticism and we should always be asking ourselves who benefits.

purely from a neutral observer standpoint, in my opinion the only way that russia would agree to pre-2022 lines would be if ukraine guaranteed that it would not wage war on its ethnic (russian) minorities, which there is 0% likelyhood of, and therefore I dont see russia ever say lets dial it back to pre-2022 lines. Nato has already admitted that ukraine carried out war crimes in the week prior to the war, then we have this brutal war. if they didnt like minorities before they will never like them now. ofc never is a long time, lets say, 100 years.

It's safe to assume that a neutral Ukraine (no NATO / EU ambitions) would've meant no Euromaidan and no Crimea takeover by Russia etc etc (meaning Ukraine wouldn't have been mauled)

Absolute dogshit. You just blatantly lie and think people will believe it.

Utter drivel.

Whats happening in Belgorod? I thought you said Russia crushed the dissidents there? Looks pretty much like the opposite is true!

This should be good.