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Aug 19 2020 11:46am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Aug 19 2020 12:38pm)
You realize that the "they" in that sentence are the fascists right?
"First they came for the Nazis, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Nazi".
Nope, doesn't really work.


Weird how the "nazis" are random ~10 year old white children who just happen to be in view of the crazed Democrat screaming racist abuse in Hugo, while they literally beat an effigy of a journalist
or the black teens just driving near CHAZ, or the good samaritan trying to save his wife and a homeless transgender woman from the mob attacking them
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Aug 19 2020 11:48am
also a great opinion column from blois today;

https://www.startribune.com/america-is-losing-its-grip-on-civility/572153882/

Quote
America is losing its grip on civility
It's happening on the left and the right, but we must all speak out against this madness to become a part of the solution.

We’re losing our civil minds.

It’s everyone’s fault, but it’s especially the fault of our leaders (on both sides) who refuse to stand up to the extreme voices in each party.

As someone who has tried to have an unemotional view for the past several years, I can’t stay silent.

When armed protesters show up at the State Capitol and Republican politicians say nothing, they are complicit.

When protesters beat the effigy of a woman reporter in front of her house and DFL politicians say nothing, they are complicit.

When Confederate flags fly and Republicans say nothing, they are enabling.

When public property is vandalized and DFLers say nothing, they are enabling.

It’s time for someone to lead, to condemn violence against people of color by police and be equally critical of the hate spewed by white Minnesotans in Stillwater.

Observing this era of the pandemic, and the social justice debate in the Trump-Omar era, would be fascinating if it wasn’t so damn disturbing. But it’s time for the left and the right, including the Facebook posters and tweeters, to understand that what they are doing by inflaming so much emotion isn’t healthy.

It’s not good for our mental health. It’s a cancer for our democracy.

Debate is healthy; violence in our neighborhoods is not.

Discussion is constructive; mocking people who wear masks is not.

We have enormous issues to tackle as a state and a nation — doing it with the current tone and tenor is a song that is easy for mainstream Minnesota to tune out. When you lose the mainstream, DFL Chair Ken Martin and GOP Chair Jennifer Carnahan, you’ll be less relevant than the current caucus system that delivers us the types of candidates you support.

Gov. Tim Walz and Lt. Peggy Flanagan were quick to protest when a CNN reporter was wrongfully detained, but they still haven’t said anything about a Minnesota reporter’s image being beaten with a stick.

Senate Majority Leader Paul Gazelka and House Minority Leader Kurt Daudt are good at playing politics with jobs and political posturing, but they aren’t so good at calling out President Donald Trump for telling Rep. Ilhan Omar to go home.

Why are our leaders so inert? They worry about their “base,” the most vocal and activist members of their parties, and about “losing them,” all for the sake of winning in November.

You’re all guilty, every single one who says nothing about the people in your own party who are wrong.

It’s time for leaders across the country to start standing up for civility and order, and if we are so “great” here in Minnesota, this would be a good place to start.

If you’re a Republican who doesn’t criticize the president for saying he should have more than two terms, and for playing politics with the Postal Service in an election, you’re the problem.

If you’re a DFLer who doesn’t condemn the beating of the Liz Collin effigy in Hugo on Saturday, you’re the problem.

Today would be a good day to stop being the problem, and start being a solution.
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Aug 19 2020 11:52am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Aug 19 2020 12:38pm)
You realize that the "they" in that sentence are the fascists right?

"First they came for the Nazis, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Nazi".

Nope, doesn't really work.


You realize that the underlying premise cuts more than one way?

Nope, seems you don't.
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Aug 19 2020 12:01pm
Quote (Santara @ Aug 19 2020 12:52pm)
You realize that the underlying premise cuts more than one way?

Nope, seems you don't.


Only when you arent making the slippery slope fallacy. We can talk about how to identify fascists, and I know some people have gone too far, but when it's an avowed fascist you haven't entered into "first they came for" territory. After all, you can just use the slippery slope to negate all action if you don't look at it critically
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Aug 19 2020 12:35pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Aug 19 2020 01:01pm)
Only when you arent making the slippery slope fallacy. We can talk about how to identify fascists, and I know some people have gone too far, but when it's an avowed fascist you haven't entered into "first they came for" territory. After all, you can just use the slippery slope to negate all action if you don't look at it critically


The point being that fascists aren't the only group of people to "come for others." C'mon now.
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Aug 19 2020 12:41pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Aug 19 2020 02:01pm)
Only when you arent making the slippery slope fallacy. We can talk about how to identify fascists, and I know some people have gone too far, but when it's an avowed fascist you haven't entered into "first they came for" territory. After all, you can just use the slippery slope to negate all action if you don't look at it critically


The rationale that you are using to eliminate fascists can be leveraged to eliminate virtually all group. See "TERFs" who are accused of "literally killing" trans by advocating for safe places for biological women.



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Aug 19 2020 12:42pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Aug 19 2020 01:41pm)
The rationale that you are using to eliminate fascists can be leveraged to eliminate virtually all group. See "TERFs" who are accused of "literally killing" trans by advocating for safe places for biological women.


Nah, I've laid out my rationale already for XistenZ and TERFs aren't included.

Quote (Santara @ Aug 19 2020 01:35pm)
The point being that fascists aren't the only group of people to "come for others." C'mon now.


Yeah, every political ideology "comes for" somebody. Not all political ideologies continuously "come for" others ad infinitum.

You're really just employing the slippery slope fallacy. We can't stop anybody from doing anything because eventually they'll come for everybody! No. That's not how these things work. Literal Nazis will come for other groups because it's baked into their ideology.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Aug 19 2020 12:44pm
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Aug 19 2020 12:50pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Aug 19 2020 01:42pm)
Nah, I've laid out my rationale already for XistenZ and TERFs aren't included.



Yeah, every political ideology "comes for" somebody. Not all political ideologies continuously "come for" others ad infinitum.

You're really just employing the slippery slope fallacy. We can't stop anybody from doing anything because eventually they'll come for everybody! No. That's not how these things work. Literal Nazis will come for other groups because it's baked into their ideology.


...and fucking commies!
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Aug 19 2020 12:51pm
Quote (Santara @ Aug 19 2020 01:50pm)
...and fucking commies!


Not inherently, but certainly some communists have other beliefs that would lead them into that, and authoritarianism which is necessary for the transition from capitalism to communism to socialism tends to attract those people.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Aug 19 2020 12:52pm
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Aug 19 2020 12:56pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Aug 19 2020 02:42pm)
Nah, I've laid out my rationale already for XistenZ and TERFs aren't included.


Ah, then it's just a poor argument.

Your rationale would find no fault with "kill all atheists", because one could simply renounce atheism. "Kill the rich" is ok, because one could simply forfeit all of their wealth. I'm not even sure you've accomplished your original goal, because fascists are not inherently Nazis, and thus do not subscribe to Nazi racial theory. Fascists who merely demand compliance with a militaristic, nationalist, authoritarian state are a-ok.
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