Quote (ofthevoid @ May 16 2023 03:59pm)

None of those countries ever represented the importance to Russia as Ukraine does. I've talked about it previously why that is in this thread, so to draw any comparison between any of them is nonsensical. Those were never red lines.

NATO actions are causal and in some way justify the Russian reaction but by no means that's to be equated with Russia being innocent. Reality is grey, both share faults for what is currently happening, the argument really is to what extent each side is responsible for. Russia is imperialistic and wants to dominate it's smaller neighbors, but when we purposefully expand fully knowing this is a red line for them, fully knowing this is something they've been crying about for 20 years, you can't somehow act surprised that they've lashed out.

Ultimately it doesn't matter how you want to frame it, reality is Russia is turning to the east because of what transpired, which is net positive for China and is an extremely impactful policy failure for US if we want to mitigate China's rise.

Quote (ofthevoid @ 16 May 2023 22:59)

None of those countries ever represented the importance to Russia as Ukraine does. I've talked about it previously why that is in this thread, so to draw any comparison between any of them is nonsensical. Those were never red lines.

NATO actions are causal and in some way justify the Russian reaction but by no means that's to be equated with Russia being innocent. Reality is grey, both share faults for what is currently happening, the argument really is to what extent each side is responsible for. Russia is imperialistic and wants to dominate it's smaller neighbors, but when we purposefully expand fully knowing this is a red line for them, fully knowing this is something they've been crying about for 20 years, you can't somehow act surprised that they've lashed out.

Ultimately it doesn't matter how you want to frame it, reality is Russia is turning to the east because of what transpired, which is net positive for China and is an extremely impactful policy failure for US if we want to mitigate China's rise.

Quote (ofthevoid @ May 16 2023 03:59pm)

None of those countries ever represented the importance to Russia as Ukraine does. I've talked about it previously why that is in this thread, so to draw any comparison between any of them is nonsensical. Those were never red lines.

NATO actions are causal and in some way justify the Russian reaction but by no means that's to be equated with Russia being innocent. Reality is grey, both share faults for what is currently happening, the argument really is to what extent each side is responsible for. Russia is imperialistic and wants to dominate it's smaller neighbors, but when we purposefully expand fully knowing this is a red line for them, fully knowing this is something they've been crying about for 20 years, you can't somehow act surprised that they've lashed out.

Ultimately it doesn't matter how you want to frame it, reality is Russia is turning to the east because of what transpired, which is net positive for China and is an extremely impactful policy failure for US if we want to mitigate China's rise.

Quote (HeLiCaL @ May 16 2023 09:48am)

Patriot got spitted on ?

Quote (ferdia @ 16 May 2023 15:01)

could not have written it better myself.

I would have transcribed the entire article if I could but its too long.

TLDR is:

"The policies that Washington has pursued toward Moscow and Kyiv, often under the banner of righteousness and duty, have created conditions that make the risk of nuclear war between the United States and Russia greater than it has ever been. Far from making the world safer by setting it in order, we have made it all the more dangerous."

Quote (Hamsterbaby @ May 16 2023 04:17pm)

Well said bro.

Every "super power " wants to have their own Monroe doctrine. And there is one particular superpower that wants complete world domination. :lol:
Almost succeeded from 1990 up till now. Almost.....

I think if they never created the alphabet people and kept the extreme right at bay they would definitely have succeeded.
Also if they would have abolished " affirmative action " ^_^

Quote (Malopox @ 16 May 2023 23:21)

It’s good to note that this is one of the only pieces I have seen in months that tries to figure out how to resolve this and acknowledges that current demands of both Russia and Ukraine are unrealistic.

Interesting parallels with how Cuban Crisis was resolved through back door diplomacy.

Great read, but very long. I’m buying a paper version if I see it.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ May 16 2023 11:18am)

So its not simply NATO expansion, its only NATO expansion in Ukraine. In your view, why is that?
Actually it is very important how anyone frames the reasons why. You say it is US/NATO actions. I am saying it is clearly not.

In order to validate your position we have to do that selective amnesia thing and forget all the other potential motivating factors, besides that of what you call NATO encroachment. That is fallacious.