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Apr 27 2021 11:18am
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 27 2021 01:14pm)


Man, I must have triggered you hard at some point. You're not able to respond to anything I post.


I did respond to what you posted with accurate condemnation of your tactic and character.
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Apr 27 2021 11:27am
Quote (cambovenzi @ Apr 27 2021 12:18pm)
I did respond to what you posted with accurate condemnation of your tactic and character.


In case you don't remember, I'll summarize the Greenwald event

IceMage made a characterization of Greenwald and gave specific examples on why he is characterizing him that way,

You then responded by insulting IceMage and insisting that his characterization was false.

Then I and others pointed out that you didn't address any actual points he made to support the characterization, and you ran away.
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Apr 27 2021 11:28am
Quote (cambovenzi @ Apr 27 2021 01:18pm)
I did respond to what you posted with accurate condemnation of your tactic and character.


I basically ignore your silly character attacks, and you get super triggered when I make impolite characterizations about you or the people you follow, while ignoring my substantive arguments.

Part of me thinks you weren't always like this pre-Trump, but I've thought the same of other users, and I'm starting to think I was wrong on all counts.
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Apr 27 2021 11:30am
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 27 2021 12:28pm)
I basically ignore your silly character attacks, and you get super triggered when I make impolite characterizations about you or the people you follow, while ignoring my substantive arguments.

Part of me thinks you weren't always like this pre-Trump, but I've thought the same of other users, and I'm starting to think I was wrong on all counts.


the only user in PARD who's as easy to make a bingo board for as Fender is Cam. the repeated insults are automatic at this point.
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Apr 27 2021 11:31am
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 27 2021 12:03pm)
ended the military support for the war in Yemen


No.

He ended support on paper, but we're still supporting Saudi Arabia because they claim all their Yemen attacks are "defensive".

I'd love if we stopped helping another country do yet another genocide, but we haven't.
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Apr 27 2021 11:34am
Quote (thesnipa @ Apr 27 2021 01:14pm)
you've highlighted without realizing just why fiscal conservativism is dead. pork laden social programs that now that they're proven can't be opposed.

the problem is that republican messaging is out of line with this reality. they broadcast a message to their voters that draws on the ideals of real fiscal conservativism, neglecting to inform those voters that social programs that they're in favor of dont take this into account, and also broadcast the idea that voters will pay drastically lower taxes under their watch.

its nostalgic garbage to grab votes from the uninformed. Republicans are better as a check on Democratic spending when they hold 1 or 2 houses to a DNC potus than they are at actually governing.

overall i dont support pork fat social programs, but i prefer them to military spending, police bolstering, and border security that is ineffectual at best.



Lol. How is it nostalgic garbage when we can point to current spending packages and compare and contrast? The infrastructure bill is just one example, there's plenty of others, for example, unemployment benefits in 2020 being another obvious one? Like why are you pretending there isn't this huge difference (into the trillions of dollars)?

Quote (IceMage @ Apr 27 2021 01:14pm)
This is an interesting discussion.

If you look at the deficit under previous presidents, it's obvious Democrats in practice are more fiscally conservative than Republicans. That said, it's partly true because Republicans apply pressure under Democratic presidents to get spending under control.

But Democrats want to spend significantly more, and even though Republicans cutting taxes is fiscally irresponsible, Democrats don't manage to raise taxes, even though they want to. So in the end, if we're faced with a situation of full Republican control vs full Democratic control, Republicans would probably run a lower deficit. But they aren't fiscal conservatives.



Man, I must have triggered you hard at some point. You're not able to respond to anything I post.


Re-read the bold, it's nonsensical to say republicans spend more if you consider your second sentence. Usually when a Republican is a president congress is democratic. A democratic-led congress spends more, so who cares if it's a Republican president in office?

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Apr 27 2021 11:38am
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Apr 27 2021 11:34am
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 27 2021 12:24pm)
Fiscal conservatism, and the notion of small government, have been central planks of American conservatism. Those issues mattered most to Tea Partiers in 2010. If those things are basically irrelevant in the midst of a Democratic president and Congress who are running up trillions of dollars of debt, the conservative movement is essentially dead. If culture wars are all that matter, and right-wingers never seem to win those fights, what's the point of the Republican party anymore? There's no governing philosophy, it's simply a party of pundits who complain about what's going on in America but can't seem to do anything that makes a difference.

Trump supposedly represented the backlash against liberals overrunning conservatives in American culture. What were the results? Is CRT more or less prominent? Did the border get secured? Is Big Tech censoring more or less(here's a hint: Trump is banned from multiple platforms)? You guys are the "old man yelling at clouds" party, nothing more.


The Tea Party was a ~3-4 year movement that encompassed one wing of the Republican party. You are extrapolating that to a half-century or more of political thought. American conservatives, historically, have been pro-growth and pro-business. Pro-growth has meant an opposition to regulation and opposition to tax increases. Reagan, for instance, did not oppose either Social Security or Medicare. Both programs are popular (unfortunately so, given their long-term financial short-falls) with Republicans and Democrats alike.

Republicans have spent the last few weeks working with Manchin and others on achieving realistic, measured infrastructure investment. They've spent a great deal of time criticizing Biden's spending plan for what it is, large, irresponsible, and indiscriminate pay-off to Democrat-aligned "green" business interests. They've spent a great deal of time identifying the real world economic costs to handicapping American access to energy. The current "meat ban" debacle is the result of a study which indicated that meat consumption would have to fall precipitously in order to achieve significant (~50%) reductions in carbon emissions. Biden supports a 50% reduction in carbon emissions, and so its reasonable to hear how Biden plans to achieve the latter without the former. I doubt you are getting this context from the Daily Show, so perhaps you need to reevaluate your news consumption.

I don't like the term "culture war". We are talking about the chilling effects of censorship on public and private speech. The racializing of American politics. Fundamental attacks on the legitimacy of the government to enforce the law and maintain order. These things clearly matter, have mattered, and will continue to matter.

A few years ago, there was a debate on whether mainstream news had left-wing bias. Allegations that Twitter and other social media outlets were "shadow-banning" were decried as conspiratorial. It is now commonly understood that the mainstream outlets are hopelessly compromised, their repeated editorial failures have been well-documented, and social media censorship is acknowledged as a matter of course. Moving from denial towards acceptance is progress. Too many conservatives were, and some still are, in denial about the reality of the situation they face. As the administration said a day or so ago, "words matter", and it is not a light or trivial thing to undo, undermine, and destroy the centuries of intellectual thought and history upon which this country has been founded.

This post was edited by bogie160 on Apr 27 2021 11:35am
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Apr 27 2021 11:39am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Apr 27 2021 01:31pm)
No.

He ended support on paper, but we're still supporting Saudi Arabia because they claim all their Yemen attacks are "defensive".

I'd love if we stopped helping another country do yet another genocide, but we haven't.


Could you explain more?

Quote (ofthevoid @ Apr 27 2021 01:34pm)
Re-read the bold, it's nonsensical to say republicans spend more if you consider your second sentence. Usually when a Republican is a president congress is democratic. A democratic-led congress spends more, so who cares if it's a Republican president in office?


So your argument is that Democratic presidents are more fiscally conservative in practice, but only because when Republicans are president, Democrats control congress?

Not sure I agree, but is the above an unfair characterization?

This post was edited by IceMage on Apr 27 2021 11:39am
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Apr 27 2021 11:43am
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 27 2021 01:39pm)
Could you explain more?



So your argument is that Democratic presidents are more fiscally conservative in practice, but only because when Republicans are president, Democrats control congress?

Not sure I agree, but is the above an unfair characterization?


Who is president is mostly irrelevant. Congress passes budgets and spending packages. You saying "Democrats in practice are more fiscally conservative than Republicans." is false because you're basing that off who is POTUS instead of looking at congress specifically.
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Apr 27 2021 11:46am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Apr 27 2021 01:43pm)
Who is president is mostly irrelevant. Congress passes budgets and spending packages. You saying "Democrats in practice are more fiscally conservative than Republicans." is false because you're basing that off who is POTUS instead of looking at congress specifically.


What were the main drivers of excess spending under Bush and Trump? Wars/defense budget increases. Tax cuts. COVID relief. Not dealing with entitlements. These are things Republicans supported.

Can you point to any bill that significantly increased spending that got passed over a veto from Bush or Trump?
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