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Oct 15 2019 03:58pm
Quote (bogie160 @ 15 Oct 2019 16:27)
Iran suffers most from economic sanctions. Slapping their wrist is fine, but strikes shouldn't be taken unless absolutely necessary.

His progress with N.Korea was fine. They throw tantrums, it's what they do. He pulled out of talks when it became apparent he couldn't get them to disarm without major concessions.

Turkey and Taliban I agree.

From what I've seen, Iran just thinks he's a wild card that can't be trusted. They completely manhandled Obama, this has been an improvement.



about as accurate as it gets, unfortunately the resident saber-rattlers will disagree
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Oct 15 2019 03:59pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 15 2019 01:12pm)
You have it backwards.

We're leaving because they are coming. They've been saying they were coming for years now just most people in the west didn't care to listen.


Herp derp up is actually down.
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Oct 15 2019 04:03pm
Quote (Skinned @ 15 Oct 2019 17:59)
Herp derp up is actually down.

‘Russia hacked the election Pres Obama said couldn’t be hacked’

next?
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Oct 15 2019 05:18pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Oct 15 2019 04:27pm)
Iran suffers most from economic sanctions. Slapping their wrist is fine, but strikes shouldn't be taken unless absolutely necessary.

His progress with N.Korea was fine. They throw tantrums, it's what they do. He pulled out of talks when it became apparent he couldn't get them to disarm without major concessions.

Turkey and Taliban I agree.

From what I've seen, Iran just thinks he's a wild card that can't be trusted. They completely manhandled Obama, this has been an improvement.


I'm a little more understanding of his restraint on Iran, but it does show weakness to not respond forcefully to what they've done the past number of months.

But I don't see how anyone could argue progress on North Korea is fine. We're not making any real progress, and they are launching missiles and pulling out of meetings. This isn't a situation where time is on our side... they can keep building nukes while we're desperately trying to strike some grand bargain.
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Oct 15 2019 05:23pm
they already have nukes. the strategical boon this gives them defensively is already there. they will not be able to develop serious offensive capacities, ever. they know very well that if they nuke any US city, their entire country will be a flattened, 1000° hot boiling wasteland 2 hours later. they also know that if they developed the capacities to be a real threat to the americans, they would by definition also be a potential threat to china - and that china will never allow this to happen.

having nukes which make it practically impossible for foreign powers to invade their country and overthrow their regime is pretty much the end of the road when it comes to NK. by far the biggest danger their nukes pose from that point on is proliferation, not a North Korean first strike or shit like that.
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Oct 15 2019 05:37pm
Quote (IceMage @ Oct 15 2019 01:57pm)
I don't get it. You're defending Trump sanctioning Turkey, and then saying America shouldn't be telling Turkey what to do.

This is the way of the world. Powerful countries exert their influence on other countries. Superpowers, especially exceptional ones like America, have an interest in shaping what happens in the Middle East. Why is crippling a nation's economy so different than stationing troops around them? Both can be existential threats to a nation.


Your question makes no sense. US troops near the Turkish border is not an existential threat to them. Having 10s of thousands of YPG grow strong on their border is. What Turkey is doing is wrong and needs to be condemned but to pretend that the YPG threat to them is nothing long term is nonsense.

Quote (IceMage @ Oct 15 2019 02:15pm)
Also void, weren't you the guy basically defending the Crimea annexation by saying they were ethnic Russians? Now you're singing a different tune when Turkey wants to take Kurdish held territory.



If all other defenses fail non-interventionists just fall back on "it's none of our business guys". It's a dogmatic position, not a pragmatic one.


And how are the 2 scenarios even remotely similar? Crimea is mostly Russian, Rojava is not mostly Turkish. A strong Kurd Rojava may lead to eventual Turkish Kurd regions to wish for independence and/or be funded by the Kurds in Rojava, is this true of the Crimea? This question honestly makes no sense and i would be shocked if you could make a coherent comparison.
Pragmatists look around the world and see failed after failed intervention and the US tax payer footing the bill. That's the realities of Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. You not being able to see this basic truth is a problem.
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Oct 15 2019 10:37pm
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Oct 16 2019 07:12am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 15 2019 07:37pm)
And how are the 2 scenarios even remotely similar? Crimea is mostly Russian, Rojava is not mostly Turkish. A strong Kurd Rojava may lead to eventual Turkish Kurd regions to wish for independence and/or be funded by the Kurds in Rojava, is this true of the Crimea? This question honestly makes no sense and i would be shocked if you could make a coherent comparison.
Pragmatists look around the world and see failed after failed intervention and the US tax payer footing the bill. That's the realities of Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. You not being able to see this basic truth is a problem.


You're missing the point. You've said that people of distinct ethnicities should be able to govern themselves. Therefore, the Turkish attempts to crack down on these Kurdish controlled areas should offend you. Your position should be that the Kurds deserve their own state.
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Oct 16 2019 07:19am
Quote (IceMage @ Oct 16 2019 09:12am)
You're missing the point. You've said that people of distinct ethnicities should be able to govern themselves. Therefore, the Turkish attempts to crack down on these Kurdish controlled areas should offend you. Your position should be that the Kurds deserve their own state.


They absolutely do and Kurds are in the right here. In an ideal world Turkey would be willing to grant them their sovereignty in the east and we can all sing kumbaya. But we don't live in the world, we live in a world where Turkey has an army of 600,000 soldiers. We live in a world where they are in one of the most strategic places in the world. We live in a world where we have nukes against Russia in Turkey. We live in a world that if we fucked with Turkey they could weaponize immigration and really fuck Europe. We live in a world where if we lose Turkey as a geopolitical friend to Iran or Russia that we would be much weaker in the region.

So while i feel for the Kurds you can't simply ignore all of those realities and ramifications. The world is really complex, you can't have absolutist positions on right and wrong.
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Oct 16 2019 07:53am
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