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May 6 2023 01:55pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 6 2023 06:13pm)
Was the situation at the height of the American Civil War better than during the antebellum period?
Was the situation at the height of the Revolutionary War better than during the preceding British rule?

No, technically not because wars and revolutions always come with disruption and suffering. In spite of temporarily leading to a more unstable and perilous situation, they can still pave the way into a better long-term future. Following your logic, no war would ever be worth fighting.

At the end of the day, we don't know how this war will end and what Ukraine's long-term future will look like. Furthermore, it is not up to us to decide which kinds of sacrifices the Ukrainian people consider worthwhile.


@bolded:

Rubbish, Ukraine is backed by the West since 2014 there's literally no doubt about it. It's literally the West that decides for Ukraine what path to follow, lol


Quote (Ironfister @ May 6 2023 07:11pm)
First of all Russians are angry that Ukrainians wanted to stay free.
So there is no coming back to more peaceful way, they will most probably want to punish Ukrainians, to make an example to the world that those who oppose Russian slavers end more tragical than those who peacefully accept being slaves.

Second of all Yanukovych presidence was a transition time, when he was trying to put Ukraine into Russian hands. But it was not a finished process, so Ukraine was not under Russian occupation yet, the process was stopped. It was kind of "baiting Ukraine" phase. Like the kidnapper driving a "come for candy" truck to lure children inside.

Also see what Black xistenz wrote, he is also right. War is a temporary situation. Peace can be signed any day. In fact we see by recent Prigozin letters that situation is bad at Russia side. That opens a window for negotiations.


Dude, the EU was baiting Ukraine (EU - Ukraine association and trade agreement). You don't know what happened, all you do is spinning a certain narrative all day long...

Euromaidan:

Quote
In November 2013, a wave of large-scale protests (known as Euromaidan) began in response to President Yanukovych's sudden decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU)
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May 6 2023 02:10pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 6 2023 11:13am)
Was the situation at the height of the American Civil War better than during the antebellum period?
Was the situation at the height of the Revolutionary War better than during the preceding British rule?

No, technically not because wars and revolutions always come with disruption and suffering. In spite of temporarily leading to a more unstable and perilous situation, they can still pave the way into a better long-term future. Following your logic, no war would ever be worth fighting.

At the end of the day, we don't know how this war will end and what Ukraine's long-term future will look like. Furthermore, it is not up to us to decide which kinds of sacrifices the Ukrainian people consider worthwhile.


based
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May 6 2023 02:12pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 6 2023 07:13pm)
Was the situation at the height of the American Civil War better than during the antebellum period?
Was the situation at the height of the Revolutionary War better than during the preceding British rule?

No, technically not because wars and revolutions always come with disruption and suffering. In spite of temporarily leading to a more unstable and perilous situation, they can still pave the way into a better long-term future. Following your logic, no war would ever be worth fighting.

At the end of the day, we don't know how this war will end and what Ukraine's long-term future will look like. Furthermore, it is not up to us to decide which kinds of sacrifices the Ukrainian people consider worthwhile.


based
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May 6 2023 02:24pm
Quote (Norlander @ 6 May 2023 20:28)
Oh, now I got the point. Using the same logic we can say that Canada doesn't belong to poor world either since it is mostly uninhabited. Correct?


??? Canada poor? Canadians are rich people. They attract immigration. If Canada had a border with belarus then the Lukashenko would be transfering and throwing 3rd world immigrants there over the border. Just as he does with Poland and Lithuania.
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May 6 2023 02:35pm
Quote (Djunior @ 6 May 2023 21:55)
@bolded:

Rubbish, Ukraine is backed by the West since 2014 there's literally no doubt about it. It's literally the West that decides for Ukraine what path to follow, lol

Dude, the EU was baiting Ukraine (EU - Ukraine association and trade agreement). You don't know what happened, all you do is spinning a certain narrative all day long...

Euromaidan:


The west doesnt decide for Ukraine, Ukrainians decided for themselves that they dont want to be a poor Russian slave, and prefer to be part of west, rich and free world.
Belarus for example took different path, they decided they are ok with being Russia vassals and part of evil empire. Its true Lukashenka kind of limits Russian attrocities, but the country is getting more and more dependant on Russia every year and belarusians never know when will Russians assasinate Lukashenko and replace him with someone even more loyal.
Its a grim path they follow. But it was belarusian people decision to surrender to Russia and the west didnt intervene.
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May 6 2023 02:44pm
Quote (Ironfister @ May 6 2023 05:24pm)
??? Canada poor? Canadians are rich people. They attract immigration. If Canada had a border with belarus then the Lukashenko would be transfering and throwing 3rd world immigrants there over the border. Just as he does with Poland and Lithuania.


Canada is a frozen hellscape where the US sends their third world immigrants.
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May 6 2023 02:50pm
In the autumn, after the currently expected offensive on the Ukrainian-Russian front, a stalemate situation may arise in which "no one has won, and both sides are suffering." In such situations, the temptation to reach an agreement increases. This was the case after the first apogee of Russian aggression, in 2015. This period lasted seven years. Then Putin struck, writes Konrad Schuller in the Sunday edition of "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" (FAZ).

Schuller warns that as long as Putin rules in Moscow, Russia will remain a robber state. He can rebuild his strained army and strike again. The consequences of Russia's conquest of Ukraine would be catastrophic for Europe and NATO. Putin would become "the most powerful Russian leader since Stalin." He could pursue his goals - rebuilding the Soviet Union, pushing America out of Central Europe, and maybe out of the entire continent. European countries, including Germany, could become "Russia's Satelites".

Only under the umbrella of NATO can Ukraine help prevent the Russian empire from returning to the center of Europe. Therefore, it must become a member of NATO at the latest when operations on the front are frozen," explains Schuller. The author refers to the precedent of West Germany, which joined NATO in 1955, although it was in territorial conflict with several countries of the Soviet zone. The promise of support from the Alliance made it clear to the leadership in Moscow that it would have to do with America if it tried to light a fuse in Central Europe.

Schuller admits that there is no guarantee that all countries will support the admission of Ukraine, and therefore this plan might fail. It is all the more urgent, according to the author, to act quickly. "If not NATO, then Plan B - a protective alliance, veto-proof because it is composed only of 'willing' countries. Plans exist, talks are ongoing.
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May 6 2023 04:21pm
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ 6 May 2023 22:44)
Canada is a frozen hellscape where the US sends their third world immigrants.


France exiled convicts inthere, but only if they accepted to marry exiled prostitutes: these are ancestors of many Canadians. I like happy ending stories.

This post was edited by Meanwhile on May 6 2023 04:21pm
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May 6 2023 04:25pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ May 6 2023 07:21pm)
France exiled convicts inthere, but only if they accepted to marry exiled prostitutes: these are ancestors of many Canadians. I like happy ending stories.


Yes the French make everything worse
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May 6 2023 05:23pm
Quote (Ironfister @ May 6 2023 05:58pm)
I do not know any civilized country that accepts unlimited immigrants.


Immigrants or refugees? anyway Ireland (and Germany) have pretty good track records in this regard (as does Poland for Ukrainian Refugees). Also i saw this:

Irish News: "President Michael D Higgins has said that his attendance at the coronation of King Charles III reflects a "significant break" from the past and demonstrates what is required in terms of good relations between countries."

i.e. historically we have been at odds with England, but over the last few decades (and since the Good Friday Agreement) things have improved alot. Accepted Brexit and the DUP in N. Ireland are doing their best to cause a rift, but our president is a good ambassador and understands the principal of dialogue (as does his wife, who was previously sanctioned by the Irish Government for asking for Peace in Ukraine).

TLDR: When living beside a sometimes poorly behaving neighbor it helps to keep dialogue going. Something alot of people in alot of places seem incapable of, unfortunately.

This post was edited by ferdia on May 6 2023 05:24pm
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