Quote (ofthevoid @ Apr 19 2023 02:20am)
This is true but the inverse is true as well. Ultra-nationalism can also bring on a war. When this war started I talked to my one Ukrainian uncle (he's in his late 40s) that has lived in the US for awhile now, but he's originally from Odessa, Ukraine. He told me the reason the war broke out and the number one group he holds at fault are the Banderovtsy (Stepan Bandera followers) who espouse an ultra-nationalistic policies who in WW2 aligned themselves with Nazi's and actually exterminated Poles & as well as other minority groups in Galicia (modern day Lviv region and other regions in west Ukraine). These are the same people who march under Pravi Sector banners or Azov banners and were the violent elements during the Maidan uprising. Google it, and you will see his posters pretty much at every pro-nationalistic Ukraine rally.
Prior to these guys taking over wholesale in Ukraine, Ukraine had a relatively good relationship with Russia. Again, I've been there, almost every person I spoke to was a fluent Russian speaker, my wife's aunt used to go do business in Russia, and these are people in southwest Ukraine, not in the Donbass or Crimea. This notion that these are two estranged people that prior to the war the Russian would just dominate, abuse and refer as to 2nd class citizens is not really reality if applied generally. I see a lot of people referring to this war as genocide. How many historical genocides have you seen where 35% of all the refugees that left the country went to the country that's supposedly genociding them? About 3 million Ukrainians went to Russia. That should tell you a lot of the nature of this war or the current framing.
Now the more I think about England-Ireland is fairly good analog. Northern Ireland is to England as the Donbass is to Russia.
None of what you described is new to me. Trust me, i think im quite well versed in the Ukraine-Russia issue (mostly on the opinions of Russians on the world). I havent been to Ukraine but ive been to Russia and know some Russians. Youre talking about the Russophones. If youre talking to your Ukrainian uncle from Odessa he's then im guessing hes part of the Russophone population that extends from Transnistria to Donbas along the shore, but you of course know him better. West, North(west), Central Ukraine is the predominantly the Ukrainian region (save for Kyiv). The Russophones are exactly whom Russia is catering to, and while its true that Ukraine has been cracking down on Russian language, its partly because of the Russian hybrid tactics of disrupting the Ukrainian West-leaning wing through a strong Russian foothold in the country. The Russophone population is divided in identity and obviously ultranationalism sucks and does drive polarization and the Russophones towards Russia, but many of them want to identify with Ukraine and choose to speak a Ukrainian style of Russian instead of Standard Russian (mostly evident in pronunciation of g/h). But out of 40 million with almost 20-40(?) % Russophones 3 million going to Russia is not a surprising thing, though i would wanna fact check that. There are separatists though and we can agree that that's a fact.
So of course the people speak Russian in Ukraine, just like the older generations speak Russian in the Baltics. It was forced by the Soviet regime and served as the lingua franca. The ordinary person doesnt care, but historh shows thatthe suppression of Ukrainian identity has been there prior to, during and a little bit after the Soviet Union. Now that the well-ingrained Russian language in Ukraine is used to manipulate Ukraine the crackdown on Russian is understandable. I know about Bandera and i find his followers annoying too, we have our own version of them here.
Imo youre on to some truths, but youre making a false equivalence that ultimately serves the aggressor. Ex-Warsaw-Pact-states flocked to the West and ended up doing much better than under Russian influence. Its only natural for Ukraine to have the same aspirations. Nobody who isnt perplexed by Russian media wants to be part of an authoritarian regime that is currently actively jailing the dissidents with arbitrary charges and verdicts. Partly because of democracy, capitalism and the prosperity that ensued.
This post was edited by Neptunus on Apr 19 2023 11:42am