d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev12512522532542554529Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Views: 293346Replies: 45286Track Topic
Member
Posts: 91,169
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,504.69
#2521
Mar 23 2022 07:36am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Mar 23 2022 07:17am)
Sanctions do very little to actually displace the decision makers in power. Look at Iran, NK, Cuba, Venezuela and pretty much every other country that has been sanctioned. Like I understand the logic, and in theory it makes sense. If you put pressure on the people economically, the people start suffering and eventually the suffering people will put pressure on those decision makers to change course, in reality that's not how it works though.


each one of those countries has been forced to change course and constantly adapt to better oppress uprisings and it forces them on a path to be more authoritarian to survive. it may not be the intended end goal but forcing countries to fight domestic battles does curb their ability to fight foreign ones. in the context of russia literally invading other countries it does seem like a good plan, even if it doesnt accomplish the collapse of the govt as some seem to think it may.
Member
Posts: 26,568
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 20,065.00
#2522
Mar 23 2022 07:41am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 23 2022 09:28am)
- The democratically elected parliament of Ukraine had ratified the association agreement with the EU, which was veto'd by Yanukovych. This was the spark that ignited the shitshow in 2014 in which both Western and Russian intelligence messed with the protests and wrestled for control.
- Yanukovych's election was mired in allegations of voter fraud and manipulation. He was not a leader elected in a squeaky-clean election.
- Zelensky banned the moderate pro-Russian party after Russia invaded his country. Authoritarian, anti-democratic measures are par for the course during wartime.
- There is no wedge between "the rest of the world and the Western alliance". Here's a map of the UN resolution to condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine:
https://gdb.voanews.com/01bd0000-0aff-0242-c65b-08d9fd1b1991_w1597_n_r0_st.png

Almost all of Latin America sided with the West, as did half of Africa, most of the Middle East and all of South East Asia with the exception of Vietnam. The only countries explicitly siding with Russia were Belarus, North Korea, Eritrea and Syria. Even Kazakhstan, an explicit ally of Russia whose president was saved from a coup d'etat by Russian paramilitary forces mere weeks before this vote, decided to abstain. Hell, even the Taliban in Afghanistan and the genocidal military dictatorship in Myanmar sided with the West.


Don't be naïve. Abstain is a rejection of the western perspective. That's why now you have so many western partners placating India and China to denounce Russia. Most of Africa and SA are largely irrelevant. The countries that matter most are China, India and the ME. Countries like Egypt, and the gulf Arabs are only denouncing this in name only (many countries are like this) as they see Russia as a huge geopolitical player in the region.
Member
Posts: 26,568
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 20,065.00
#2523
Mar 23 2022 07:41am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 23 2022 09:28am)
- The democratically elected parliament of Ukraine had ratified the association agreement with the EU, which was veto'd by Yanukovych. This was the spark that ignited the shitshow in 2014 in which both Western and Russian intelligence messed with the protests and wrestled for control.
- Yanukovych's election was mired in allegations of voter fraud and manipulation. He was not a leader elected in a squeaky-clean election.
- Zelensky banned the moderate pro-Russian party after Russia invaded his country. Authoritarian, anti-democratic measures are par for the course during wartime.
- There is no wedge between "the rest of the world and the Western alliance". Here's a map of the UN resolution to condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine:
https://gdb.voanews.com/01bd0000-0aff-0242-c65b-08d9fd1b1991_w1597_n_r0_st.png

Almost all of Latin America sided with the West, as did half of Africa, most of the Middle East and all of South East Asia with the exception of Vietnam. The only countries explicitly siding with Russia were Belarus, North Korea, Eritrea and Syria. Even Kazakhstan, an explicit ally of Russia whose president was saved from a coup d'etat by Russian paramilitary forces mere weeks before this vote, decided to abstain. Hell, even the Taliban in Afghanistan and the genocidal military dictatorship in Myanmar sided with the West.


Don't be naïve. Abstain is a rejection of the western perspective. That's why now you have so many western partners placating India and China to denounce Russia. Most of Africa and SA are largely irrelevant. The countries that matter most are China, India and the ME. Countries like Egypt, and the gulf Arabs are only denouncing this in name only (many countries are like this) as they see Russia as a huge geopolitical player in the region. Even countries like Turkey are walking a very fine line because they have a lot to lose. There's a reason why the Turks have been relatively tame in their condemnation and really have done little to nothing when Ukraine asked them for several things to impede Russia.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Mar 23 2022 07:44am
Member
Posts: 52,480
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,404.67
#2524
Mar 23 2022 07:48am
Quote (ofthevoid @ 23 Mar 2022 14:41)
Don't be naïve. Abstain is a rejection of the western perspective. That's why now you have so many western partners placating India and China to denounce Russia. Most of Africa and SA are largely irrelevant. The countries that matter most are China, India and the ME. Countries like Egypt, and the gulf Arabs are only denouncing this in name only (many countries are like this) as they see Russia as a huge geopolitical player in the region.


There's around half a billion people in, respectively, the SE Asian and the Latin American countries who voted in favor of this resolution. That's not irrelevant. And even if Egypt and the Gulf monarchies are only denouncing Russia in name only, their vote for the Western condemnation of the invasion still disproves Goom's claim that it is the West who's isolated itself on the world stage and who turned even former allies against it. The rest of his claims and arguments are up for discussion, but this one is just plain wrong.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Mar 23 2022 07:49am
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
#2525
Mar 23 2022 07:55am
Btw you see how big is Ukraine on the map ? Invading and controlling it is a very different deal than assassinating and replacing the governement by a puppet.
Member
Posts: 52,480
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,404.67
#2526
Mar 23 2022 07:56am
Quote (ofthevoid @ 23 Mar 2022 13:47)
People in power always find a way. These oligarchs have tens if not hundreds of millions they are playing with. A few yachts or a few western mansions isn't going to change much lol. Even if you reduce their cash flows in the grand of scheme it doesn't really impact their quality of living as many of them already have so much money stacked. They'll still get their Gucci bags and luxury products it'll just be a little harder and more expensive. This does however impact the average Russian who will have his work hours cut or he will be laid off as exports have dried up, or all those western corporations who provided jobs in Russia now don't.


Do you really believe that the Russian oligarchs are fine when their personal wealth shrinks from, say, $8 billion to $2 billion, or when they have to give up their villas and estate in the West, their yachts and football clubs and other toys?

This will of course not lead to Putin getting toppled outright, but like snipa said, the discomfort among Russian elites will require Putin's attention and occupy his security apparatus, just like the sanctions will make it harder for him to fund a protracted war.
Member
Posts: 26,568
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 20,065.00
#2527
Mar 23 2022 07:58am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 23 2022 09:48am)
There's around half a billion people in, respectively, the SE Asian and the Latin American countries who voted in favor of this resolution. That's not irrelevant. And even if Egypt and the Gulf monarchies are only denouncing Russia in name only, their vote for the Western condemnation of the invasion still disproves Goom's claim that it is the West who's isolated itself on the world stage and who turned even former allies against it. The rest of his claims and arguments are up for discussion, but this one is just plain wrong.


Symbolic condemnations at the UN mean very little, it doesn't matter how many people are in SA, what matters is who are the power brokers in the world. In this day and age it's clear China and India are who matter most (i'm excluding the west obviously) ME matters because that's the energy hub of the world. Many of these other countries are just filler in how much pull they actually have.

The west didn't isolate itself but by forcing countries to chose you're either with us or against us it's showing the limitations of their actual pull. US had to concede a ton these last weeks to the gulf Arabs just to get them to pump more oil. They now got patriot missile defense systems and i'm sure we had to up the ante on our "security" guarantees for them against the Houthis. It's not that we the west don't have pull, it's the fact that the places we thought we had pull it's actually costing us a lot more for that pull. Russia sees this, China sees this and they see our hegemonic soft power crumbling.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Mar 23 2022 08:08am
Member
Posts: 128
Joined: Mar 10 2022
Gold: 0.00
#2528
Mar 23 2022 07:59am
Using one UN general assembly vote isn't a good metric to measure at all. It is words of condemnation with no binding teeth. Actions speak louder when they involve taking meaningful substantive actions.
Let me use the example of Israel. Israeli voted yes on the resolution, they are as close allies to the US as they come... but they need Russia because Russia controls Syrian airspace.
Zelensky contacted the Israeli prime minister to mediate with Russians a the start of the war, Bennet visited Moscow shortly after.
The result? The Ukrainians were complaining that Israel was trying to convince them to accept terms of surrender.
Each country has its own special circumstances but that should tell you how much substance is in a yes vote of that general assembly.
Member
Posts: 46,815
Joined: Jan 20 2010
Gold: 22,159.69
#2529
Mar 23 2022 07:59am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 23 2022 08:28am)
- The democratically elected parliament of Ukraine had ratified the association agreement with the EU, which was veto'd by Yanukovych. This was the spark that ignited the shitshow in 2014 in which both Western and Russian intelligence messed with the protests and wrestled for control.


Which was under his lawful powers as president.

Quote
- Yanukovych's election was mired in allegations of voter fraud and manipulation. He was not a leader elected in a squeaky-clean election.


No, it wasn't. Western and Russian contemporary observers agreed it was a free and fair election. ex;
https://euobserver.com/foreign/29431


Quote
- Zelensky banned the moderate pro-Russian party after Russia invaded his country. Authoritarian, anti-democratic measures are par for the course during wartime.


I'm trying to find the page in my history book where FDR locked up all the Republicans during WW2
Maybe this is a weird European thing, but normally "wartime president" =/= "repressive dictatorship"

Quote
There is no wedge between "the rest of the world and the Western alliance". Here's a map of the UN resolution to condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine:
https://gdb.voanews.com/01bd0000-0aff-0242-c65b-08d9fd1b1991_w1597_n_r0_st.png


Now map out those who put their money where their mouth is. Paying lip service to America when it costs them nothing and stakes nothing, is nothing. All of Africa and Asia and the mideast save Singapore won't join in, and Russia is glaring harshly at Singapore for it. Mexico won't, India won't, even Israel won't.
Votes on a meaningless resolution don't mean anything, sanctions do. Even our NATO allies are guzzling away on Putin's gaslines.

Member
Posts: 91,169
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,504.69
#2530
Mar 23 2022 08:02am
Quote (Goomshill @ Mar 23 2022 08:59am)
Which was under his lawful powers as president.



No, it wasn't. Western and Russian contemporary observers agreed it was a free and fair election. ex;
https://euobserver.com/foreign/29431




I'm trying to find the page in my history book where FDR locked up all the Republicans during WW2
Maybe this is a weird European thing, but normally "wartime president" =/= "repressive dictatorship"



Now map out those who put their money where their mouth is. Paying lip service to America when it costs them nothing and stakes nothing, is nothing. All of Africa and Asia and the mideast save Singapore won't join in, and Russia is glaring harshly at Singapore for it. Mexico won't, India won't, even Israel won't.
Votes on a meaningless resolution don't mean anything, sanctions do. Even our NATO allies are guzzling away on Putin's gaslines.


Were the republicans during WW2 pro-Hitler? not even anti-war, but pro-Hitler?
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev12512522532542554529Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll

© 2003-2024 d2jsp  Contact