Quote (CPK001 @ May 24 2018 09:30am)
I don't know what you are talking about. I considered the things you said. I answered you using Old Testament scripture. God knows what is truly important in life. He sees all and knows all. God has also explained it to us where our focus should lie, in Matthew 6:19-21 - “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
If you think that God only cares for this life then why would Jesus tell you not store up treasures on Earth? Everybody knows that one day they will die. Who will inherit your treasures then? When you visit a graveyard your life will be summed up in two dates: the day you were born and the day you died. Nothing in-between matters.
The thing is, when you rely on your works to get you into Heaven, that is intangible. Who tells you when you've done enough to enter Heaven? Your subconscious thoughts would tell you that.
If you believe the Old Testament then you will believe the New Testament. Let's look at some key versus that are linked together.
Zechariah 9:9 - fulfilled in John 12:12-15
Micah 5:2 - fulfilled in Matthew 2:1-6
As you can see, you cannot have the Old Testament without the New Testament.
Oh yes and I kept my ego in check and remained impartial. Can you honestly say that you did the same? I don't see why you cannot see the link between the Old Testament and the New Testament. It has always been up to you when you want the discussion to end. I'll keep on going till the very end. If you had started this discussion back in 2016 then I would still be replying today. If you want a big hint, look at the ending to War Games. It is up to you whether you listen and take the advice or not.
Will you listen and build your house on the rock or will you refuse to listen and build your house on the sand, just like in Matthew 7:24-27?
Treasures on earth are blessings by G-d. G-d promised the Jews for instance to the bless the land if they kept his laws. Poverty, misery, and disease are not the rewards of G-d, these are not desirable but are rather curses and points to a problem. 99% of the Old Testament is about to avoid bad things in this life.
But I don't believe in an afterlife. You may do it, and I see nothing harmful about it, other than I believe you are going to be disappointed, and that is why I point out to you that the Old Testament was never intended to be a book about the afterlife, but it was only about a book about this life. Look at the characters of Adam and Eve, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Job, King David, they are never promised an eternal afterlife in paradise with G-d. It is clearly understood that they died and returned to the dust. Then notice the lack of sentimentality about death in the OT; it is because these men understood that the world revolves around G-d, and not them, and selflessness is an effective antidote against fear of death.
So that is why you don't seem to understand where I'm coming from; because my view is that humanity naturally is separated from G-d, but that we can draw closer to him by doing commandments. The more obedient we are, the closer we live in accordance to the Law, the more fully can we enjoy the presence of G-d. He is like a tree of life that you cleave to. If you live in harmony with him, he will give you a wife, and you will have children and your seed will live on after you have perished. Most importantly you will "live in his sight" when you are obedient and keep yourself pure and that makes life so much more worthy to live. G-d many times over warned the Jews about the consequences of sin, and never, not even once, did he even hint at further punishment beyond death, but it was always disease, conquest by another nation, failure of all sorts in THIS LIFE that his warning finger pointed at. Also the blessings was earthly. Never do G-d in the Torah promise the Jews an eternal life. But it was always a matter of prolonging your days. Torah is clear beyond a reasonable doubt that life ends at death, and that original judaism was never about the afterlife. It was a way of life here, on this earth, in this world. One can think it is strange that G-d would warn the Jews about every possible misfortune in this life yet leave out caution against an eternal fiery lake, but it makes all the more sense when you truly understand that it was not the same G-d who wrote the two books. Some mysteries belongs to G-d alone as Torah says, but your very reason tells you that when you die, you perish. Every person who is rational can understand this. We seem to intuitively know it as well since we consider suicide when times are hard. I don't think that many people actually have a strong faith in an afterlife. I don't believe it. I at least feel that we perish. I don't expect to live for eternity and G-d doesn't owe me that either. It's not about me, I'm rather a tool to reveal his presence in this world. This is the Torah's view and it is a much more noble view I think. It is not sinful or "wordly" to be concerned about this life. Seriously every functional individual whose mind is spotless and free from disease is concerned about this world, and we should be. G-d did not make this world just for us to wait for another.
But I must ask; since your theology is about eternity, hell or heaven, then where is Moses according to you? Moses disobeyed a clear commandment by G-d. It was for this reason that G-d told him that he would not enter the promised land. Can you believe this punishment? A big part of his life was dedicated to the promised land, yet because he wanted to impress the people, G-d told him no. G-d was strict with Moses, very strict. But what would G-d's punishment have meant if G-d just told Moses; "Ey dude, you will not enter the promised land, that is your punishment for the disobedience, but I will take you to an even greater place called Heaven!". Then death would not mean anything. But G-d does not say that. Moses is well aware of the fact that when he dies, he will perish. He did not expect to burn in hell either, he simply accepted the will of G-d, and he died never having entered the promised land. Many times in the OT we read that G-d's anger is never forever; and we can understand it in this life too, because there are ALWAYS mitigating factors in every case of suffering, and it is like a natural law, mercy in the very design of it.
It clears up so many things when you understand the Torah is a book of life, instructions for life on this earth, a national system of religious law, and the story of the Jewish people, as well as poetry, wisdom, legends. But it has nothing to do with witches, demons, devils, paradise, spirits and other superstitious things. The plain rational tone of the book is striking because it is so different from other religions at the time.
Edit: And let me make this clear for you: I would have no problem whatsoever accepting Jesus the Messiah as my savior, because an eternal paradise and a ticket out of hell would be great. I have no problem whatsoever to admit that I fall short in every respect, that I will probably never be righteous and pure enought to enter into the very presence of G-d. My only problem with Christianity is simply that it is not consistent with the Old, the text contains too many contradictions, absurdities and violations of reason, that I just cannot accept it. I just cannot. It is so obvious a fake to me and written by ashamed Jews who took texts from the OT and made a story of it.
This post was edited by Tjo on May 24 2018 04:57am
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