Quote (CPK001 @ May 21 2018 06:15am)

Jesus and the Pharisees clashed many times. The Pharisees added to God's law to make themselves look good while looking down on others.

Matthew 23 is a very good example of one such clashes. I guess it comes down to who you will choose to listen to.



We are under the second Covenant with God. The New Covenant was ushered in by Jesus Christ when he died and rose again on the Cross. Before the second Covenant was the first Covenant, which was given to Moses to pass onto the Israelites's. If the first Covenant was sufficient then there would be no need for a second Covenant.

Let's put it this say, you owe your Master $10,000,000. You know that you can't pay it back. One day your Master calls you in and demands payment right then and there. What do you do when you have to give an account and you can't pay him back? You will say that you can't pay it back. You will have to throw yourself onto the mercy of your Master. Now imagine if he then went and cancelled that debt and wipes it clean. Who owns the burden of that $10,000,000? He does! Jesus came and took the punishment that we deserve. He owned that so we didn't have to.

Now what if you wanted to try and actually pay off that debt by relying on good works? Every good works would net you only 1 cent each. Yet while trying to pay back that debt, you are accumulating that debt at a much higher rate.

So what does it mean that we are under Grace? It means that we know that we cannot pay the debt but through the Grace of God that debt was wiped clean. Yes we still sin but you can rest assured that the payment of that sin has been dealt with once and for all. In the Mosaic time the blood of goats and bulls would be the sacrifice to pay for those sins. This would also happen daily.



Even from the beginning, when God spoke to the serpent there was a hint that he was going to fix the problem. "You will strike his heel (the crucifixion) and he will crush your head."

Then when Abraham was to sacrifice his son Isaac. God stopped him and supplied a lamb. It was like a switcheroo.

Then God rescued Israel from the Egyptians then the Law was given out. Do you notice the order of sequence? Israel was first saved then the Law was given. Just like now, we are first saved then we are called to live Christian lives.

Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

God also said to David that "he will establish the throne of his kingdom forever." 2 Samuel 7:13.

Then we have 1 Kings 9:5 - I will establish your royal throne over Israel forever, as I promised David your father when I said, ‘You shall never fail to have a successor on the throne of Israel.’

Here is the Old Testament promising that there will come a ruler over Israel and that he will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

Also, what about Daniel 12? The very title of that chapter is called "The End Times".



http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=73889562&f=119&p=525625079#p525625079

All I am saying that Abraham, as good as he was, wasn't completely blameless.



I agree. God did indeed forgive people in the Old Testament without sacrifice, without Jesus. Let's look at Romans 3:25-26 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.



I agree with all of this. It all comes down to loving God. It is the Greatest Commandment. It will also be a thing that you will have to constantly remind yourself and wrestle with for the rest of your life.

Matthew 22:34-40 - 34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Quote (CPK001 @ May 21 2018 06:15am)

Jesus and the Pharisees clashed many times. The Pharisees added to God's law to make themselves look good while looking down on others.

Matthew 23 is a very good example of one such clashes. I guess it comes down to who you will choose to listen to.



We are under the second Covenant with God. The New Covenant was ushered in by Jesus Christ when he died and rose again on the Cross. Before the second Covenant was the first Covenant, which was given to Moses to pass onto the Israelites's. If the first Covenant was sufficient then there would be no need for a second Covenant.

Let's put it this say, you owe your Master $10,000,000. You know that you can't pay it back. One day your Master calls you in and demands payment right then and there. What do you do when you have to give an account and you can't pay him back? You will say that you can't pay it back. You will have to throw yourself onto the mercy of your Master. Now imagine if he then went and cancelled that debt and wipes it clean. Who owns the burden of that $10,000,000? He does! Jesus came and took the punishment that we deserve. He owned that so we didn't have to.

Now what if you wanted to try and actually pay off that debt by relying on good works? Every good works would net you only 1 cent each. Yet while trying to pay back that debt, you are accumulating that debt at a much higher rate.

So what does it mean that we are under Grace? It means that we know that we cannot pay the debt but through the Grace of God that debt was wiped clean. Yes we still sin but you can rest assured that the payment of that sin has been dealt with once and for all. In the Mosaic time the blood of goats and bulls would be the sacrifice to pay for those sins. This would also happen daily.



Even from the beginning, when God spoke to the serpent there was a hint that he was going to fix the problem. "You will strike his heel (the crucifixion) and he will crush your head."

Then when Abraham was to sacrifice his son Isaac. God stopped him and supplied a lamb. It was like a switcheroo.

Then God rescued Israel from the Egyptians then the Law was given out. Do you notice the order of sequence? Israel was first saved then the Law was given. Just like now, we are first saved then we are called to live Christian lives.

Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

God also said to David that "he will establish the throne of his kingdom forever." 2 Samuel 7:13.

Then we have 1 Kings 9:5 - I will establish your royal throne over Israel forever, as I promised David your father when I said, ‘You shall never fail to have a successor on the throne of Israel.’

Here is the Old Testament promising that there will come a ruler over Israel and that he will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

Also, what about Daniel 12? The very title of that chapter is called "The End Times".



http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=73889562&f=119&p=525625079#p525625079

All I am saying that Abraham, as good as he was, wasn't completely blameless.



I agree. God did indeed forgive people in the Old Testament without sacrifice, without Jesus. Let's look at Romans 3:25-26 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.



I agree with all of this. It all comes down to loving God. It is the Greatest Commandment. It will also be a thing that you will have to constantly remind yourself and wrestle with for the rest of your life.

Matthew 22:34-40 - 34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Quote (Tjo @ May 21 2018 02:28pm)

Yes but you speak as if there is some natural law that requires faith in Jesus to be forgiven when countless times in the Old Testament G-d forgives his people and tells them that they WILL (he knows the future) keep all his commandments. The sacrifical system was based on a national level and in exile G-d would pardon as soon as they returned to him with all their heart. You are so obsessed with this "debt", when in fact the OT is not. And G-d did not leave the children of Israel unpunished before Jesus time, have you not read history? The Jews were punished severely for their sins, then restored. The consequences of sin are still today. Nothing has changed. Except if you talk abou afterlife but nowhere in the OT does it say that G-d will burn people forever, it is entirely a pagan idea.

You find fault at Abraham but the fact remains that G-d regarded him as his friend, and this presents a picture of G-d different from the Christian view that G-d is this super stern Judge who will not overlook a single offense. When things in life goes well for you, and you have godly peace in your heart, and you just know that you are pure, you feel it, your joy does not come from the wind (worthless things) but you feel secure, rooted, with a firm foundation; that is evidene that G-d is happy with you. And the more strictly you follow the law the more peace you will have, that is the reward. You feel how your relationship with G-d is at this very moment; and throughout your life. You do not live your life and then G-d appears and tells you how you have been. Every man who searches his heart will know whether he has G-d's favour or not; if he is wise enough to distuingish the inner voice of the pure G-d almighty, and his own corrupted ego.

There are numerous examples of men in the Bible, besides Abraham, who were regarded as righteous by G-d himself. The Jews do not believe in Jesus yet they are forgiven today and dwell in their homeland, which G-d gave to them.

Quote (Tjo @ May 21 2018 02:31pm)

And no, the second covenant had nothing to do with Jesus. The second covenant is talked about in the book of Jeremiah and it concerns the children of Israel. It is about the future when the Jews will safely dwell in the land of Israel never to be uprooted again, a time when the hearts of all Jews will be pure and right with G-d, and no man will even talk with his neighbor about G-d because everyone will know him. It is the very opposite of the Christian "covenant" which is based on preaching, whereas the covenant spoken of in Jeremiah talks about the opposite-there would be no preaching, the law of G-d would supernaturally be given to the Jews and they would walk in his ways.

Quote (CPK001 @ 21 May 2018 09:17)

Bible verse?

Quote (CPK001 @ May 21 2018 08:17am)

John 14:6 is a remarkable claim. "I am the way, the truth and the life, nobody comes to the father except by me." What Jesus is saying is that there is no way to enter Heaven except through him. You come to many examples throughout the Bible where people rely on their good works and their material possessions alone. Yet when they meet Jesus then they are exposed. God also says that he is rich in love and slow to anger.

God would punish the Jews for their disobedience as they would worship other gods. When the Jews were conquered then they would return to God for him to get the Jews out of the situation. Then once the Jews beat the enemy then they would once again do evil in the sight of the LORD. Read the book of Judges and you will see what I mean. It eventually got to the point where God would exile the Jews as he was fed up with them.

Matthew 13:41-42 - The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It is important to read both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Yes there are still consequences for actions. You do not want the ultimate consequence for rejecting God.

Luke 13:1-9 puts it quite simply, repent or perish.

Yes God regarded Abraham as righteous due to his faith. When we read the Bible, we find that God is rich in love and slow to anger. There comes a point in time though when you will have to give an account for your actions. God may judge by giving the evil ones over to their sin. You reap what you sow. When things in life go well, many people forget God as they come to rely on their own power, they say that they don't need God because life is going well.

So the evidence you say that God is happy with you is that: life is going well, have godly peace in your heart, know that we are pure, feel it, feel secure, rooted and have a firm foundation. Is that correct? I want clarification on that.

How well do you have to follow the Law in order to have peace? Not even the Jews could follow the Law as they worked hard to break it at every turn.

What is the reason that these men in the Bible were regarded as righteous by God himself? What was their big quality that they had over everyone else?



Bible verse?

Quote (CPK001 @ May 21 2018 08:17am)

What is the reason that these men in the Bible were regarded as righteous by God himself? What was their big quality that they had over everyone else?



Bible verse?

Quote (CPK001 @ May 21 2018 08:17am)

Bible verse?

Quote

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:31-35).

Quote (the_rest @ May 21 2018 06:37pm)

here's a bible verse from you: 'repent or perish.'

Quote (Tjo @ May 21 2018 07:33pm)

The same Christian clichés. You keep repeating the old mantra and I wonder if you really read what I'm saying. No one is as pure as G-d and the OT state this many times. And the OT is not a book about "heaven" but a book for here and now. It has nothing to do with salvation for an eternal paradise, literally nothing. That is pagan.

Quote (Tjo @ May 21 2018 07:41pm)

Haha. Many had faith in G-d. The Jews were never asked to believe in G-d. The Jews do not believe. They are required to know. The obsession with faith is Christian. The kind of faith which Jews value in faith in that G-d is best, his ways are best, it's more of a trust. Faith was counted as righteousness to Abraham yes, but not only that. He walked with G-d.

If you took an honest look, and read the Bible from beginning to end, and put away all preconceived ideas and what the preachers have told you, you would obviously see that the OT and NT deals with different worlds, in different tones, its different gods really. Not to even mention all the inconsistencies in the NT.

Quote (Tjo @ May 21 2018 07:42pm)

The entire chapter is dedicated to the Jews' restoration so G-d is here clearly speaking about the Jews and not some transformed Pagans.

And this has not been fulfilled. The Jews were not restored around Jesus time but almost two millenia later. G-d says that he will only restore the land of Israel and bring the Jewish people there if they had his favour. Explain to me how they can have his favour if they still reject Jesus, according to you?....

Quote (CPK001 @ May 21 2018 12:25pm)

You had best heed those words.



Who claimed to be as pure as God? Also, what do you think the Bible is all about?



How did they show that they had faith in God? What is this about faith without works in James 2:14-26? What is the difference between the faith the Jews have to the ones that the Christians have? How can faith be counted to righteousness to us when we do not get to walk with God?

I've read the entire Bible from beginning to end. To me the Old Testament and New Testament seem to connect quite perfectly. Where are the inconsistencies in the New Testament to the Old Testament?



In order to understand this you will first need to go back to the the Priest Melchizedek. Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God most High. He met Abraham and blessed him. Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. Melchizedek means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." No father or mother, no genealogy, no beginning of days or end of life. Resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever. Just think, the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! The descendants of Levi who became priests collected a tenth from their fellow Israelite's, even though they are also descended from Abraham. Melchizedek did not trace his descent from Levi and yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.

If perfection could have been attained through Levitical priesthood, why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? It is clear that Jesus descended from Judah and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless for the law made nothing perfect and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. It was also not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’” Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

Here is what we are trying to say: We have such a High Priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being. Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.