d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev1240324042405240624074467Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 30,165
Joined: Sep 10 2004
Gold: 0.00
Warn: 30%
Mar 15 2023 04:03pm
Quote (Djunior @ 15 Mar 2023 19:38)
The only thing I agree with is at the beginning when she said that 2008 (Bucharest summit) was a bad idea and the West should've handled that better.

Everything after that is claiming that Putin was since 1991 thinking about reinstating the USSR or expansion. If that is true, the conflict would've started earlier because Putin has watched NATO expanding round after round by which he then lost the opportunity to take that territory back according to that logic. Plain and simple.

Ukraine was a step too far, NATO should NOT have pushed it that far and negotiations could've taken place at the beginning where NATO and EU could've agreed on Ukraine staying neutral (meaning no NATO / EU membership).


you DO know that ukraine had no path into NATO in 2022 when russia invaded, right?
you DO know that russia repeatedly acknowledged ukrainian territorial integrity and diplomatic independence in official treaties between 2008 and 2014, right?

you DO know that completely debunks the "it's NATO's fault russia is murdering innocent people and destroying a country" talking point and exposes it as the transparent kremlin propaganda it is, right?
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Mar 15 2023 04:35pm
Quote (Djunior @ 15 Mar 2023 19:38)
Everything after that is claiming that Putin was since 1991 thinking about reinstating the USSR or expansion. If that is true, the conflict would've started earlier because Putin has watched NATO expanding round after round by which he then lost the opportunity to take that territory back according to that logic. Plain and simple.


The army wasn't "prepared enough", the country was economically devastated, Putin himself wasn't powerful enough for such big decisions, but it came quick. They did first chechen "war" in 1995, but this country is dozens of time smaller in population than Ukraine.
They still got REKT. What they did ? Bombing civilians as retaliation... Then they came back in 1999 and did massive massacres, this time they "won"...
Afte that Georgia...
You aware that he didn't have the power to extend his own mandates the first time ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medvedev%E2%80%93Putin_tandemocracy

"according to that logic. Plain and simple." Really ? Honestly, this stage of ignorance, I am just sorry for you.
Member
Posts: 4,145
Joined: Jun 30 2022
Gold: 4.91
Warn: 10%
Mar 15 2023 05:15pm
Quote (fender @ Mar 15 2023 07:03pm)
you DO know that ukraine had no path into NATO in 2022 when russia invaded, right?
you DO know that russia repeatedly acknowledged ukrainian territorial integrity and diplomatic independence in official treaties between 2008 and 2014, right?

you DO know that completely debunks the "it's NATO's fault russia is murdering innocent people and destroying a country" talking point and exposes it as the transparent kremlin propaganda it is, right?


You DO know that writing like THIS makes you looks like and INSANE person, right?

Btw who have you seen use that particular talking point?
Member
Posts: 42,597
Joined: Aug 25 2008
Gold: 46,068.00
Mar 16 2023 12:55am

, , ,

If you guys have time. Can listen to it while farming chaos

three months back, quick lecture in Hungary.

Uni polar , Bipolar and Multi Polar world .
The US / Russia and China Geo Politics and explaining the Ukraine situation.

Member
Posts: 51,621
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 45,309.00
Warn: 10%
Mar 16 2023 01:34am
Quote (Djunior @ Mar 15 2023 06:38pm)
The only thing I agree with is at the beginning when she said that 2008 (Bucharest summit) was a bad idea and the West should've handled that better.

Everything after that is claiming that Putin was since 1991 thinking about reinstating the USSR or expansion. If that is true, the conflict would've started earlier because Putin has watched NATO expanding round after round by which he then lost the opportunity to take that territory back according to that logic. Plain and simple.

Ukraine was a step too far, NATO should NOT have pushed it that far and negotiations could've taken place at the beginning where NATO and EU could've agreed on Ukraine staying neutral (meaning no NATO / EU membership).


The argument (narrative) is that putin is imperialistic and that this has nothing to do with Nato expansion. prior to the invasion jeffrey sachs went to the US government and said "ok if its nothing to do with nato can we not just tell russia that ukraine will not become a part of nato, and that way if russia does invade at least we can say it had nothing to do with nato". the response from the administration was "no".

There are alot of video's both from this lady and others and they all put forward different versions of the same history. most of them are in agreement that 2008 was a bad idea as it gave no security to ukraine and pissed putin off.

here is another one:



This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 16 2023 01:38am
Member
Posts: 42,597
Joined: Aug 25 2008
Gold: 46,068.00
Mar 16 2023 02:09am
Quote (Hamsterbaby @ 16 Mar 2023 14:55)
^ferdia , ^dizzybusiness , ^ofthevoid , ^ownyaah

If you guys have time. Can listen to it while farming chaos

three months back, quick lecture in Hungary.

Uni polar , Bipolar and Multi Polar world .
The US / Russia and China Geo Politics and explaining the Ukraine situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-2Oy3MVyyA




Just an added note. The Q&A is really worth the shot listening whole.
Member
Posts: 14,675
Joined: Jun 27 2010
Gold: 100,701.50
Mar 16 2023 02:29am
Quote (fender @ Mar 15 2023 11:03pm)
you DO know that ukraine had no path into NATO in 2022 when russia invaded, right?
you DO know that russia repeatedly acknowledged ukrainian territorial integrity and diplomatic independence in official treaties between 2008 and 2014, right?

you DO know that completely debunks the "it's NATO's fault russia is murdering innocent people and destroying a country" talking point and exposes it as the transparent kremlin propaganda it is, right?


https://www.nato.int/docu/update/2008/04-april/e0403h.html

And recently:



Quote (Meanwhile @ Mar 15 2023 11:35pm)
The army wasn't "prepared enough", the country was economically devastated, Putin himself wasn't powerful enough for such big decisions, but it came quick. They did first chechen "war" in 1995, but this country is dozens of time smaller in population than Ukraine.
They still got REKT. What they did ? Bombing civilians as retaliation... Then they came back in 1999 and did massive massacres, this time they "won"...
Afte that Georgia...
You aware that he didn't have the power to extend his own mandates the first time ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medvedev%E2%80%93Putin_tandemocracy

"according to that logic. Plain and simple." Really ? Honestly, this stage of ignorance, I am just sorry for you.


You should be sorry for yourself, NATO shill

See what I posted above? There you go, lol

This post was edited by Djunior on Mar 16 2023 02:30am
Member
Posts: 51,621
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 45,309.00
Warn: 10%
Mar 16 2023 02:42am
Quote (Djunior @ Mar 16 2023 08:29am)
https://www.nato.int/docu/update/2008/04-april/e0403h.html

And recently:

https://i.imgur.com/bJ4SXNz.jpg



You should be sorry for yourself, NATO shill

See what I posted above? There you go, lol


im sorry this is very distracting can you just stop djunior !?

What Djunior posts (above)
What ferdia sees: :wub: <3 :love:



This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 16 2023 02:42am
Member
Posts: 30,165
Joined: Sep 10 2004
Gold: 0.00
Warn: 30%
Mar 16 2023 04:18am
Quote (Djunior @ 16 Mar 2023 09:29)
https://www.nato.int/docu/update/2008/04-april/e0403h.html

And recently:

https://i.imgur.com/bJ4SXNz.jpg



You should be sorry for yourself, NATO shill

See what I posted above? There you go, lol


apparently your reading comprehension has gotten even worse somehow, so let me give you the crayon version:

in 2022, when russia invaded ukraine again, ukraine had NO realistic pathway to become a part of NATO. that's a fact.

russia's war did not prevent ukraine's imminent NATO membership. that's just a silly kremlin talking point. if anything, it proved to the sceptical part of ukraine's population that their future has to be with the west, and not the dictator who's murdering their fellow countrymen by the tens of thousands. it also drove sweden and finland, who have for the longest time been sceptical about NATO, to apply for membership. pootin is the REAL driver of NATO "expansion" near russia's border, lol.

even if pootin's wildest dreams came true today, if zelensky's government and all ukrainian troops magically disappeared, the "best" he could hope for is becoming the dictator of (another) country full of people who hate his guts - like nazi-occupied poland for example.
Member
Posts: 51,621
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 45,309.00
Warn: 10%
Mar 16 2023 04:41am
technically and exclusively to how he has framed it, what fender said is correct, accepting that fender and djunior are not quite saying the same thing.
in my opinion.

also:

Russia said Thursday U.S. President Joe Biden had no interest in improving ties with Russia after he referred to Vladimir Putin as a "killer," sparking the biggest crisis in years between the former Cold War rivals. Russia's relationship with the West has eroded over a spate of disagreements, but relations plunged to new depths Wednesday after Biden agreed Putin was a "killer" in a U.S. television interview. "These statements from the president of the United States are very bad," Putin's spokesman Dmirty Peskov told reporters. "It is clear that he does not want to get the relationship with our country back on track, and we will proceed from that," he added.

In a swift response to Biden's comments, Moscow on Wednesday evening recalled its ambassador in the United States for urgent consultations — an unprecedented move in recent Russian diplomacy.

====
in combination with Biden's stated "he has to go" - in the eventuality that Biden is re-elected, there is a heightened risk of direct war between the US and Russia. its amazing that the US are saying all these and making no efforts to dial it back. flying planes in and around contested air space, while bombs are dropping close to nulcear power plants, while tanks are being shipped in. This rhetoric is all very scary and all of this is inviting an accidental sleep walk into a larger war, which will not be fought conventionally (because this is all russia has conventionally and they cant beat ukraine with it).

video footage purporting to relate to the drone:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-video-shows-moment-russian-fighter-jet-collides-us-drone

====
and also from Fox news: "US drone downed by Russia latest in pattern of Moscow hostile 'signaling'". Im not sure, I thought they were already at war. If they are not hostile what are they? perhaps flying close to Taiwan, err i mean crimea, is seen as a hostile act in and of itself?

Finally (again, fox news):

While Western defense officials remain concerned over how this could escalate the war in Ukraine and potentially beyond its borders, retired U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Anthony J. Tata said the alleged attack was in part a response to a shift in the U.S.'s intelligence sharing policy with Ukraine.

"The least discussed aspect of the Russian jet engagement of the United States Air Force MQ-9 Reaper drone is the apparent policy change of providing intelligence directly to Ukraine, which of course requires the United States to deploy intelligence collection assets in proximity to Russian forces," Tata, author of the new book "Total Empire," told Fox News Digital.

During the early months of the war, reports suggested that the Biden administration had limitations on the sort of intelligence it would share, like information that would aid Ukraine in the precision targeting of top Russian officials.

However, by the end of 2022, reports citing unidentified senior officials from the Pentagon suggested that the U.S. had expanded its intelligence sharing policies to aid Kyiv.

"The Reaper – jet incident is the latest icy patch on the slope toward NATO and [the] United States’ direct military involvement in Russia’s invasion of Ukraine," Tata added.

The retired brigadier general pointed out that though the downing of the Reaper drone is a costly loss for the U.S. and its allies, it is not the first time Washington has dealt with such an incident.

"Not having a pilot in the downed aircraft keeps the response threshold below direct combat retaliatory threshold," he said. "We should remember that Iran downed the very same model aircraft in 2019 and the administration wisely kept its powder dry.

"Still, Russia intercepted and destroyed the drone, and the incident deserves a policy response and discussion, bearing in mind at the bottom of this slope are the two nations with the bulk of the world’s nuclear weapons," Tata added.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 16 2023 05:09am
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1240324042405240624074467Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll