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Mar 13 2023 01:12pm
Quote (ferdia @ Mar 13 2023 07:02pm)
not a fan of switerland then.


anyway the swiss position:

President of the Swiss Confederation Alain Berset says that Switzerland’s neutrality is more important than ever which does not allow the country to send weapons to Ukraine.

"The government's position is clear, it also corresponds to my personal position: Swiss weapons must not be used in wars," Berset told Neue Zueriche Zeitung am Sonntag in an interview, an Ukrinform correspondent reports.

According to him, Bern's policy is based on "commitment to peace, humanitarian law, mediation where possible."

The President emphasized that Switzerland seeks to be present wherever it can contribute to mediation and peace. He also considers it necessary to hold negotiations to end the war in Ukraine, and "the sooner, the better."

As reported, the Swiss government previously stated that it would not change its policy on the ban on the transfer of Swiss-made weapons to third countries, despite pressure from European countries regarding their supply to Ukraine. In January, two parliamentary committees in Switzerland recommended relaxing the rules. However, after the meeting on March 10, the government rejected this call.

The years-long tradition of neutrality became the subject of debate after the Russian Federation's full-scale invasion of Ukraine and calls from European partners to provide ammunition and allow the re-export of equipment with Swiss spare parts.

Switzerland rejected requests from Germany, Spain, and Denmark referring to the Act on War Materiel which prohibits any re-export if a recipient country is in an international armed conflict.

At the same time, Switzerland joined many European sanctions against the Russian Federation.


Kind of a contrived position. They manufacture alot of munitions and platforms. They sell those platforms.
They don't want countries selling those weapons to third parties, namely Ukraine.

Quote (ferdia @ Mar 13 2023 07:10pm)
and the fact is switzerland has stated that it advocates peace and de-escalation.


The only country not advocating peace is Russia. You can also advocate for peace and still support your allies.
If Ukraine stops fighting, there isin't peace. There is no more Ukraine and more blood spilt by Russia.



This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Mar 13 2023 01:13pm
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Mar 13 2023 01:13pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 13 2023 07:12pm)
Kind of a contrived position. They manufacture alot of munitions and platforms. They sell those platforms.
They don't want countries selling those weapons to third parties, namely Ukraine.


its contrived only on the basis that they advocate neutrality and are in a position to state a view without negative repercussions.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 13 2023 07:12pm)
Kind of a contrived position. They manufacture alot of munitions and platforms. They sell those platforms.
They don't want countries selling those weapons to third parties, namely Ukraine.



The only country not advocating peace is Russia. You can advocate for peace and still support your allies.

If Ukraine stops fighting, there isin't peace. There is no more Ukraine and more blood spilt by Russia.


The bolded statement is not factual.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 13 2023 01:15pm
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Mar 13 2023 01:14pm
Quote (ferdia @ Mar 13 2023 07:13pm)
its contrived only on the basis that they advocate neutrality and are in a position to state a view without negative repercussions.


How neutral are they really. They have sanctioned Russia but also have had billions of Russian funds in their banking system.

Playing both sides sounds more fitting.
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Mar 13 2023 01:16pm
Quote (ferdia @ 13 Mar 2023 20:13)
its contrived only on the basis that they advocate neutrality and are in a position to state a view without negative repercussions.


It stops at banks.


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Mar 13 2023 04:26pm
Interesting article from 2018 about how Scotland was used to launder millions of dollars from Ukraine.


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15812266.scottish-shell-firms-used-launder-tens-millions-dollars-looted-ukraine-countrys-former-leaders/

Which led me to find this article as well


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15183346.scots-shell-companies-used-launder-4-billion-russia/

That seems...not great.
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Mar 13 2023 08:04pm
Canadian foreign minister mme Joly, friday:

“We’re able to see how much we’re isolating the Russian regime right now — because we need to do so economically, politically and diplomatically — and what are the impacts also on society, and how much we’re seeing potential regime change in Russia,” she said.

The Liberals have pushed for regime change in Iran, but Joly has not previously said the same about Russia. She said regime change is indeed the point of sanctions and pursuing accountability for alleged war crimes.

“The goal is definitely to do that, is to weaken Russia’s ability to launch very difficult attacks against Ukraine. We want also to make sure that Putin and his enablers are held to account”

==> Seems they have clear objectives.
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Mar 13 2023 08:22pm
hey look actual journalism
https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1635442071073955841



Trump:

Quote
“Like inflation and numerous other self inflicted wounds and mistakes made over the past two years, Russia would definitely not have raided and attacked Ukraine if I was your President. In fact, for four years they didn’t attack, nor did they have any intention of doing so as long as I was in charge. But the sad fact is that, due to a new lack of respect for the U.S., caused at least partially by our incompetently handled pullout from Afghanistan, and a very poor choice of words by Biden in explaining U.S. requests and intentions (Biden’s first statement was that Russia could have some of Ukraine, no problem!), the bloody and expensive assault began, and continues to this day. That is all history, but how does it end, and it must end, NOW! Start by telling Europe that they must pay at least equal to what the U.S. is paying to help Ukraine. They must also pay us, retroactively, the difference. At a staggering 125 Billion Dollars, we are paying 4 to 5 times more, and this fight is far more important for Europe than it is for the U.S. Next, tell Ukraine that there will be little more money coming from us, UNLESS RUSSIA CONTINUES TO PROSECUTE THE WAR. The President must meet with each side, then both sides together, and quickly work out a deal. This can be easily done if conducted by the right President. Both sides are weary and ready to make a deal. The meetings should start immediately, there is no time to spare. The death and destruction MUST END NOW! Properly executed, this terrible and tragic War, a War that never should have started in the first place, will come to a speedy end. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!”

Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?

“No, but it is for Europe. But not for the United States. That is why Europe should be paying far more than we are, or equal.”

What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it?

“Our objective in Ukraine is to help and secure Europe, but Europe isn't helping itself. They are relying on the United States to largely do it for them. That is very unfair to us. Especially since Europe takes advantage of us on trade and other things.”

What is the limit of funding and materiel you would be willing to send to the government of Ukraine?

“That would strongly depend on my meeting with President Putin and Russia. Russia would have never attacked Ukraine if I were President, not even a small chance. Would have never happened if I were President, but it has. I would have to see what the direction in which Russia is headed. I want them to stop, and they will, depending on the one that delivers that message. But with everything said, Europe must pay. The United States has spent much more than Europe, and that is not fair, just, or equitable. If I were President, that horrible war would end in 24 hours, or less. It can be done, and it must be done-- now!”

Should the United States support regime change in Russia?

“No. We should support regime change in the United States, that's far more important. The Biden administration are the ones who got us into this mess.”

Given that Russia’s economy and currency are stronger than before the war, do you believe that U.S. sanctions have been effective?

“No, they have not been effective. Just the opposite. They drove Russia, China and Iran into an unthinkable situation.”

Do you believe the United States faces the risk of nuclear war with Russia?

“It depends on who the President of the United States is. At the moment, with Biden as president, absolutely yes. He says and does all the wrong things at the wrong time.”


Desantis;

Quote
Florida Governor
@RonDeSantisFL
answers our Ukraine questionnaire:

“While the U.S. has many vital national interests – securing our borders, addressing the crisis of readiness within our military, achieving energy security and independence, and checking the economic, cultural, and military power of the Chinese Communist Party – becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia is not one of them. The Biden administration’s virtual “blank check” funding of this conflict for “as long as it takes,” without any defined objectives or accountability, distracts from our country’s most pressing challenges.

Without question, peace should be the objective. The U.S. should not provide assistance that could require the deployment of American troops or enable Ukraine to engage in offensive operations beyond its borders. F-16s and long-range missiles should therefore be off the table. These moves would risk explicitly drawing the United States into the conflict and drawing us closer to a hot war between the world’s two largest nuclear powers. That risk is unacceptable.

A policy of “regime change” in Russia (no doubt popular among the DC foreign policy interventionists) would greatly increase the stakes of the conflict, making the use of nuclear weapons more likely. Such a policy would neither stop the death and destruction of the war, nor produce a pro-American, Madisonian constitutionalist in the Kremlin. History indicates that Putin’s successor, in this hypothetical, would likely be even more ruthless. The costs to achieve such a dubious outcome could become astronomical.

The Biden administration’s policies have driven Russia into a de facto alliance with China. Because China has not and will not abide by the embargo, Russia has increased its foreign revenues while China benefits from cheaper fuel. Coupled with his intentional depletion of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve and support for the Left’s Green New Deal, Biden has further empowered Russia’s energy-dominated economy and Putin’s war machine at Americans’ expense.

Our citizens are also entitled to know how the billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars are being utilized in Ukraine.

We cannot prioritize intervention in an escalating foreign war over the defense of our own homeland, especially as tens of thousands of Americans are dying every year from narcotics smuggled across our open border and our weapons arsenals critical for our own security are rapidly being depleted."


Pence:

Quote
Former VP
@Mike_Pence
answers our Ukraine questionnaire

Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?

“When the United States supports Ukraine in their fight against Putin, we follow the Reagan doctrine, and we support those who fight our enemies on their shores, so we will not have to fight them ourselves. There is no room for Putin apologists in the Republican Party. This is not America’s war, but if Putin is not stopped and the sovereign nation of Ukraine is not restored quickly, he will continue to move toward our NATO allies, and America would then be called upon to send our own.

Vladimir Putin has revealed his true nature, a dictator consumed conquest and willing to spend thousands of lives for his commitment to reestablish the Greater Russian Empire. Anyone who thinks Putin will stop at Ukraine’s border is not owning up to the reality of who Putin is. We need to be clear-eyed about the Russian threat: that Georgia, the Crimea, and Ukraine are merely at the top of Putin’s lists, they are not the only countries he’s aiming for. And by supporting Ukraine, we have told China we will support Taiwan, should they follow Russia in an attempt to invade.”

What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it?

“Victory for Ukraine, where Ukraine’s sovereignty and peace are restored as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, the Biden administration slow walked aid to Ukraine, every response has been too slow from providing intelligence to Ukraine, to hammering Russia with sanctions, to providing military equipment and fighter jets to Ukraine.

Ukraine’s victory should be an unmistakable, undeniable defeat for Russia and its allies.”

What is the limit of funding and material you would be willing to send to the government of Ukraine?

“As a fiscal conservative, I do not believe in sending blank checks and want oversight of government spending at home and abroad. But withholding or reducing support will have consequences: If Putin is not stopped now and he moves into NATO-controlled territory, the cost will be far greater.”

Should the United States support regime change in Russia?

“That is a better question for the thousands of Russian citizens jailed for protesting the Russian invasion of Ukraine. As many as 200,000 Russian troops have been killed or wounded in Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, that question should be asked to those families grieving their loss, ask if they’d support a regime change.”

Given that Russia’s economy and currency are stronger than before the war, do you believe that U.S. sanctions have been effective?

“The Trump-Pence administration established a devastating sanctions program and was the toughest US administration on Russia since the Cold War. Sanctions against Russia could have had even more painful consequences if the Biden administration moved quicker with new sanctions and western Europe had heeded US warnings to look elsewhere for energy sources.

Russia’s economy and currency are not stronger than before the war. The Russian economy is in free-fall. The Russian ruble is still afloat because of the extremely costly measures Russia has taken to keep their currency at pre-war levels in the face of sanctions. Russia is currently being propped up by China, and if China withdraws their support, Putin could run out of money by as soon as 2024; Russia is not in a strong economic position. This war is costing Russia their economy, their military prowess, their position on the world stage, and it’s costing lives.”

Do you believe the United States faces the risk of nuclear war with Russia?

“Putin is still “the small and bullying leader of Russia,” his talk of nuclear war is a bullying tactic that he used at the start of the invasion. But Putin should know the United States will not be bullied. This administration has not led with strength on the world stage, but America is still a nation that believes peace comes through strength.”
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Mar 14 2023 03:48am
Quote (Goomshill @ Mar 14 2023 02:22am)
Pence:


the main take away from all that is that Mike Pense is out of touch with reality. when did he say all that? some gems:

"Unfortunately, the Biden administration slow walked aid to Ukraine, every response has been too slow" - He has literally ignored the billions and bllions in aid provided over 22 years.
"Sanctions against Russia could have had even more painful consequences if the Biden administration moved quicker with new sanctions" - The ramifications of sanctions in hindsight are proving to be an own goal for US interests this century. They will literally write books about this as a case study in stupidity. If countries move away from the dollar and move away from dealing in dollars or with the US this is going to have far reaching profound consequences. The US is trying to remain pre-eminent. What it is doing is literally giving its pre-eminence away here.
"The Russian economy is in free-fall." If this is true can anyone provide any evidence to support? genuine question.

He is literally playing party politic's. so far removed from common sense in the midst of a war with Russia and China.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 14 2023 03:51am
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Mar 14 2023 04:15am
Quote (ferdia @ Mar 14 2023 04:48am)
If this is true can anyone provide any evidence to support? genuine question.


Yes its easy to see everywhere. Russia is experience record inflation on food, energy, housing, etc. Their economy is in such shambles that businesses are fleeing inner cities as retail theft becomes widespread, violent crime following closely. Their tech sector is shedding jobs left and right, and now banks are collapsing due to lack of money. They are being outmaneuvered for access to global food, energy and rare earth elements. They've been in a recession for years but their central bank tries to just print more rubles and change the definition of 'recession' to pretend it isn't happening.
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Mar 14 2023 04:24am
not shying away from anything now

Biden Quotes
"Failure at some point in your life is inevitable, but giving up is unforgivable"
"We are America, second to none, and we own the finish line. Don't forget it."
"We didn't crumble after 9/11. We didn't falter after the Boston Marathon. But we're America. Americans will never, ever stand down. We endure. We overcome. We own the finish line."
"The 21st century is going to be the American century. Because we lead not only by the example of our power, but by the power of our example. That is the history of the journey of America."
"America doesn't have health insurance."
"I consider myself to be as informed on American foreign policy as anyone in America. "
"Look, freedom is an overwhelming American notion. The idea that we want to see the world, the peoples of the world free is something that all of us subscribe to.
"America's commitment to collective defense under Article 5 of NATO is a sacred obligation in our view - a sacred obligation not just for now, but for all time. "
"Foreign policy is like human relations, only people know less about each other. "
"No one ever doubts that I mean what I say. The problem is I sometimes say all that I mean.

Putin Quotes
"Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains. "
"Russia is a part of European culture. Therefore, it is with difficulty that I imagine NATO as an enemy."
"Russia does not have in its possession any trustworthy data that supports the existence of nuclear weapons or any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and we have not received any such information from our partners as yet."
"I see that not everyone in the West has understood that the Soviet Union has disappeared from the political map of the world and that a new country has emerged with new humanist and ideological principles at the foundation of its existence."
"It's a historical phenomenon that in 250 years, a nation could move from a colony into the most prosperous nation of the world and the leader of the world. It is indeed an achievement, a tribute to the talent of the American nation, the American people and an optimal political and economic system."
"The ability to compromise is not a diplomatic politeness toward a partner but rather taking into account and respecting your partner's legitimate interests."
"Radicals can be found in any environment."
"Those who fight corruption should be clean themselves."
"No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used, not by the Syrian Army, but by opposition forces to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists."
"There's no happiness in life, only a mirage of it on the horizon."
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