Quote (fender @ Mar 12 2023 01:02pm)
educate myself about what?
- the alleged "promise" about nato expansion? how about YOU educate yourself about the countless ACTUAL treaties and commitments russia made acknowledging and confirming ukraine's territorial integrity and independence even AFTER most former warsaw pact members became part of NATO?
- some guy predicting a war and blaming the west? how about YOU educate yourself about the concept of agency, about russia's role, about proportionality, about the difference between diplomatic aggression and military aggression, between a nation state and a defensive alliance, between a desire for security and independence and the desire to conquer foreign territories?
- some former prime minister making a statement that russian propaganda picked up and constantly misuses out of context? again, ukraine has agency, if they stopped fighting tomorrow there's nothing "the west" could do. if pootin just wanted peace and withdrew from ukrainian territory (territory that, again, russia acknowledged countless times in official treaties doesn't belong to them), ukraine would happily accept that, and there would be peace tomorrow.
- the US ("or its allies" - nice catch-all there) blowing up NS2? i've been over this as well. while you trolls already committed to the old fart's "US did it because i said so" fairy tale (which i rejected for its complete lack of evidence), i find the new report about a ukrainian group much more credible. that would not be the US though (even though i wouldn't be shocked about pentagon involvement, but i want evidence for that before just claiming it), that would be ukraine. again, they have agency. also, if you look back at my comments at the time, i always said that i don't find it unimaginable that the US is behind it. in fact, they were always the 2nd most likely culprit for me - it's just that russia's incentives were higher and their risks significantly lower. we still don't know anything with certainty or even high likelihood - so stop acting like it.
your main problem is that you pretend (or maybe even genuinely think) you are "objective", but you simply refuse to put things into context and consider that this war has multiple angles to consider, not just two. your main goal here appears to be to "balance" your thread, and since most people side with the aggressed upon and not the warmonger, you tend to more easily accept pro russian narratives while dismissing evidence that is pro ukraine, or exposes the kremlin friendly talking points as the distractions and excuses they are.
what it comes down to is that all of the cute little talking points you are so eager to push, even if we uncritically accepted them as 100% true, don't excuse the war. they don't mean that destroying a whole country, killing and wounding tens of thousands of innocent civilians, causing unimaginable suffering to millions of people (including many russians btw) is in any way justified. russia has agency. they were not "forced" to do any of this. even ukraine being in NATO (which wasn't going to happen any time soon btw - when russia invaded them the second time, there wasn't even a way for ukraine to join at that point) would NOT be an existential threat to them, no matter what they publicly claim, no matter what you personally want to believe. NATO doesn't just randomly attack nuclear armed nations to conquer them - that never happened, and never would - that's pure russian propaganda.
you might want to look up the UN definition of "genocide", CCP apologist.
Russia Built Nord Stream 2
The US objected
The US president "We will end it"
It was ended.
The swedes know who did it but refuse to say. they dont like Russia, why would they then cover for Russia?
Russia is repairing it. Why repair it if they blew it up ?
Russia asked the United Nations to investigate who did it.
The US vetoed the request.
A highly decorated journalist, a US journalist, scooped that the US did it.
The US government, in fact the same individual that played a part in assigning who would go into governement in Ukraine (the US backed Coup) voiced her happiness that NS2 was "a hunk of metal at the bottom of the sea"
The mental gymnastic's here to not move from the position that it was not Russia, or any of Russia's allies, is simply amazing. This is why I say you are so intelligent and dangerous. You know the argument for Russia being responsible is weak so instead of debating in good faith you just throw up alot of noise to deflect away from the matter at hand.
It is much safer for you, and proximity, to move beyond NS2 and just camp on warcrimes and illegal war. this is not the first time I have suggested this to you.
your welcome.
also, /e I must stress that I do not return to NS2, you guys do. it is such a bad position to argue wtf are you guys thinking? move on, no one cares about NS2 except Russia.
This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 12 2023 08:18am