d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev1235023512352235323545001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 56,398
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 585,113.49
Mar 9 2023 09:09am
Credit: Hoover.org David P Goldman

What is America’s Strategic Interest in Ukraine?

As the Ukraine war enters its twelfth month, the military situation remains a stalemate, but a stalemate that gives the political advantage to Russia. If Russia can hold most of the territory in the oblasts of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson that it annexed on Sept. 30, 2022, it will claim success for its “special military operation.” A dismembered Ukraine will be left with a trillion-dollar reconstruction bill on a GDP of barely $100 billion, a resident population of perhaps 25 million with ten million of its citizens living abroad as refugees, and a dim future.

In furtherance of what strategic interests has the United States acted in Ukraine? Is Ukraine’s NATO membership an American raison d’état? Did American strategists really believe that sanctions would shut down Russia’s economy? Did they imagine that the trading patterns of the Asian continent would shift to flow around the sanctions? Did they consider the materiel requirements of a long war that is exhausting American stockpiles? Did they consider what tripwires might elicit the use of nuclear weapons? Or did they sleepwalk into the conflict, as the European powers did in 1914?

Why did Russia invade? Would Russia have invaded Ukraine if the West and the Zelensky government had put Minsk II into effect, with autonomous Russophone regions within a sovereign and neutral Ukraine? Contrafactual history is inherently unprovable, but there are good reasons to believe that this is true. Protecting the rights of Russians separated from the motherland by the breakup of the Soviet Union is a Russian raison d’état. After more than 14,000 casualties in fighting between Ukrainian nationalists and pro-Russian separatists in Donbas before the February 24th invasion, it is hard to argue that Russia’s concerns were groundless.

In 2008, Russia intervened in Georgia to uphold the principle that anyone who holds a Russian passport—Ossetian, Akhbaz, Belorussian, or Ukrainian—is a Russian. Russia’s survival depends neither on its birth rate, nor on immigration, nor even on prospective annexation, but on the survival of the principle by which Russia was built in the first place. That is why Putin could not abandon the pockets of Russian passport holders in the Caucasus.

A generation of American diplomats, including Henry Kissinger and former Ambassador to Russia William Burns, warned that expanding NATO to Ukraine was a tripwire for Russia. German documents published by Der Spiegel in February 2022 confirm that Western powers gave Russia written assurance in 1990 against NATO expansion. Russia’s prostration after its 1998 debt default, though, allowed NATO to ignore these assurances. Under Clinton, NATO’s mission morphed into a nebulous human rights and social welfare agenda. NATO added Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic in 1999, and another seven former Soviet-zone countries in 2004. Meanwhile the Bundeswehr shrank to five ill-equipped divisions from the twelve combat-ready, heavily armed divisions of 1990. NATO degraded its military function as it padded its membership.

Ukraine is another matter. Russia regards its inclusion in NATO as an existential threat. Putin stated on the eve of the invasion on February 23:

Positioning areas for interceptor missiles are being established in Romania and Poland as part of the US project to create a global missile defense system. It is common knowledge that the launchers deployed there can be used for Tomahawk cruise missiles—offensive strike systems.

In addition, the United States is developing its all-purpose Standard Missile-6, which can provide air and missile defense, as well as strike ground and surface targets. In other words, the allegedly defensive US missile defense system is developing and expanding its new offensive capabilities.

The information we have gives us good reason to believe that Ukraine’s accession to NATO and the subsequent deployment of NATO facilities has already been decided and is only a matter of time. We clearly understand that given this scenario, the level of military threats to Russia will increase dramatically, several times over. And I would like to emphasize at this point that the risk of a sudden strike at our country will multiply.

In October 2021, Russia tested its first submarine-launched hypervelocity missile and deployed the first S-500 air defense system around Moscow. If American strategists were not angling for advantage in a prospective nuclear exchange, as Putin believed, why then abandon Minsk II and the principle of Ukrainian neutrality? Regime change in Russia has been on the agenda of some senior Biden Administration officials for a decade. As Undersecretary of State Victoria Nuland, head of the State Department Eastern European desk, told a Congressional committee on May 6, 2014: “Since 1992, we have provided $20 billion to Russia to support the pursuit of transition to the peaceful, prosperous, democratic state its people deserve.”

What Moscow saw was not the America of 1983, which pursued peace through strength, but rather provocation from weakness. It miscalculated on an invasion with just 120,000 troops. If regime change was not Washington’s agenda before February 24, it became so explicitly afterward. On March 26, President Biden declared that Putin “cannot remain in power,” defining America’s goal as regime change. This was a grave miscalculation. The Russian elite has rallied behind the regime, aware that its privilege and position will disappear if the regime falls, and the Russian people stoically follow their orders. December opinion polls show near-record 81% support for the regime.

Contrary to earlier American claims that economic sanctions would reduce Russia’s economic output by half, Russia’s GDP shrank by only 4 percent in 2022. Russia’s exports to China rose to $190 billion in 2022 from $86 billion in 2021, and exports to India reportedly doubled to $27 billion in 2022 from $13 billion in 2021, although the true total probably is higher. Russian fertilizer revenues rose by 70% in 2022 vs. 2021 despite a 10% drop in volume. Chinese and Indian goods have replaced many Western items, with only minor inconvenience to Russian consumers. Turkey, Armenia, Georgia, and other countries on Russia’s periphery have boosted exports to Russia, effectively circumventing U.S. sanctions. At about RUB 69 to the U.S. dollar, Russia’s currency trades higher than it did a year ago. New trading relationships, especially in energy, have emerged in Eurasia that consolidate Chinese influence.

It is unclear whether the West has an advantage over Russia in the prospective provision of materiel. By Estonian estimates, Russia can produce 9,000 artillery shells a day, compared to a present U.S. total of 15,000 a month. U.S. capacity to provide precision munitions to Ukraine is constrained, according to a January 9, 2023, CSIS assessment. Russia meanwhile has added substantial amounts of mobilized manpower, improved ground-air coordination, deployed additional SU-35 and SU-57 warplanes, and sent a significant number of its most advanced T90 tanks to the front.

The West probably does not have the military capacity to drive Russia out of Ukraine. To be sure, some U.S. analysts see military aid to Ukraine as a cheap option. The Hudson Institute’s Rebecca Heinrichs tweeted on January 12, 2023, that the U.S. risks “running out of certain weapons systems. But those weapons are also destroying weapons of a top-tier adversary cooperating with our number one adversary. Not a waste.” That is, the U.S. may sacrifice Ukraine in an unwinnable war of attrition in the hope of degrading Russian capabilities. U.S. military analysts touted one Wunderwaffe after another as the key to victory: Javelin anti-tank missiles, Switchblade drones, HIMARS, and so forth. Even if the U.S. provided Abrams tanks and F-16s to Ukraine, though, these systems would require many months of training before deployment. Russia meanwhile has successfully mobilized forces roughly double the size of its initial invasion force and improved its performance on the ground.

Having stumbled into a war for which it was poorly prepared, and having then failed to crush the Russian economy through sanctions, the United States faces a dilemma. A cease-fire in place, even an armistice like the North-South Korea divide, would allow Russia to claim success in its annexation of Ukrainian territory. Continuing the war, though, eventually will reduce Ukraine to dysfunctionality, as Russian forces continue to inflict casualties on the Ukraine Army, and Russian ordnance degrades Ukraine’s infrastructure. The U.S. could deploy weapons to strike targets deep inside Russia, or even deploy American combat forces, but at the risk of nuclear war with Russia, something the Biden Administration appears to recognize.

Barring a decisive offensive by either the Ukrainian or Russian side during the coming months, the war of attrition will continue. Western weapons will not give Ukraine a decisive advantage. With roughly five times Ukraine’s much-reduced population, Russia is the likely victor in a war of attrition.

The most likely outcome is a humiliating armistice. Paradoxically, that may redound to the long-term benefit of the United States. North Vietnam did the United States a favor by humiliating us before the Soviet Union did. It destroyed the limited-war illusion that possessed American military planners from the late 1950s onward. Our humiliating withdrawal from Vietnam in 1975 made possible a radical re-thinking of American military strategy, beginning under Defense Secretary Harold Brown in 1977 and continuing through the Reagan Administration. The United States undertook a revolution in defense technology that produced modern avionics and precision weapons, reversing the advantage that Russia enjoyed in conventional weapons in the early 1970s. The Russian military concluded after the 1982 Beqaa Valley air war and the initiation of the Strategic Defense Initiative that it could not keep pace technologically with America.

Utopian illusions about exporting democracy motivated America’s great blunders of the past generation, from Afghanistan and Iraq to Libya and Syria, and ultimately Ukraine. Perhaps we require another national humiliation on the scale of Vietnam to bring us back to the drive for technological superiority that ultimately won the Cold War.

David P. Goldman is Deputy Editor of Asia Times, where he has written the "Spengler" column since 2001. Previously he was an award-winning market strategist and research director at Credit Suisse and Bank of America. From 2013 to 2016 he was a partner at Reorient Group (now Yunfeng Financial), a Hong Kong investment bank. His books include How Civilizations Die (2011) and You Will Be Assimilated: China's Plan to Sino-Form the World (2020). He contributes to The Wall Street Journal, Newsweek, Claremont Review of Books, and Tablet, among other publications. He has consulted for the Defense Department's Office of Net Assessment and for the National Security Council. He serves on the advisory board of SIGNAL, an Israeli think tank specializing in Sino-Israel relations.
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Mar 9 2023 09:16am
Quote (ferdia @ 9 Mar 2023 16:09)
Credit: Hoover.org David P Goldman

What is America’s Strategic Interest in Ukraine?


Then what are Chinese, Russian "interests" ?

"The Trump administration maintained close ties with the institution and multiple Hoover affiliates were assigned top positions in government. Scott Atlas, one Hoover fellow, was known for pushing against public health measures as a top Trump advisor in the COVID-19 pandemic, and was condemned in a Stanford faculty vote."
source; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Institution

Lol antivax institute ??

LOOOl In "Why Russia won't invade Ukrainistan," published three days before the Russian invasion of Ukraine in Asia Times, Goldman incorrectly predicted that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Mar 9 2023 09:22am
Member
Posts: 15,955
Joined: Jun 27 2010
Gold: 102,354.50
Mar 9 2023 09:22am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Mar 9 2023 03:57pm)
"Hypocrite" "liar" "tool" "dishonest" ... Okay...

Blaming NATO while trying to justify Gulag ?

I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you:

At a joint press conference in January 2003, Putin responded to a question about Ukraine. “Ukraine is an independent sovereign state, and it will choose its own path to peace and security”

Source: https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/19/putin-russia-ukraine-nato-george-robertson/

==> List of Sovereign States in the World: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states

The invasion of Ukraine may also have violated international agreements that Russia is a party to, including:
The 1975 Helsinki Final Act, in which the USSR promised not to violate the "territorial integrity" of other signees, including through the use of force. Russia and Ukraine were both created as a result of the USSR's breakup.
The 1994 Budapest Memorandum, in which Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom agreed "to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine."
The Minsk Agreements, which are a pair of ceasefire agreements signed by Russia and Ukraine relating to the conflict between those countries that began in 2014

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIH4SpaC2v0

Putin: Soviet collapse a 'genuine tragedy'

https://i.ibb.co/1rFhx1y/image.png

U.N Resolution condemning military agression of Ukraine:

https://i.imgur.com/615iIkD.jpg

Fatality meme:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/419/309/bf6.png


Yes, you're absolutely dishonest.

What I posted cannot be refuted, you responded by posting the situation before the USSR gave up Eastern EU after negotiations and without a shot fired.

Again, thank you for torpedoing your own argument, lol. The Soviets negotiated, Western leaders were smart enough to negotiate and it worked out very well.

History proves that the West negotiated with the Soviets, history proves that after that, NATO expanded round after round, lol.

You should bow out and leave, cya



Quote (ferdia @ Mar 9 2023 04:04pm)
Russia, and Ukraine, are running out of munitions. This is a fact. Ukraine is re-supplied by the West and Russia is resupplied both internally and by trade partners.

I read an article which purports that 97% of the Russian military is focused on Ukraine. This to my mind means, if there is no improvement in the Russian position over the next 3-6 months it is very likely that they will have to conscript more men and move their country into a more warlike footing (production etc). On reading several papers this would appear to be what the Hawks in Russia want to do. [ Hawks are people that want to settle things with sword and guns not papers and talking ].

There is no evidence to suggest that Ukraine will admit defeat. There is no evidence to suggest that Russia is capable of a swift victory. There is no evidence to suggest there will be peace in 2023. There is evidence to suggest that as the war escalates it will change (get worse) not end.

In another paper, a national survey, 97% of Ukrainian respondents believed that Ukraine will win the war. quoting now "The survey also offered importance insights into Ukrainian perceptions of victory. Perhaps the most significant finding was that Ukrainians are not ready to accept a return to the status quo on the eve of the full-scale invasion, when Russia already occupied Crimea and parts of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions in eastern Ukraine. Instead, a commanding majority of Ukrainians are convinced that only the full restoration of Ukraine’s territorial integrity within the country’s internationally recognized borders can bring peace."

also ^Djunior here is some ammunition for you : https://www.hoover.org/research/what-americas-strategic-interest-ukraine

the notable snippet: "A generation of American diplomats, including Henry Kissinger and former Ambassador to Russia William Burns, warned that expanding NATO to Ukraine was a tripwire for Russia. German documents published by Der Spiegel in February 2022 confirm that Western powers gave Russia written assurance in 1990 against NATO expansion. Russia’s prostration after its 1998 debt default, though, allowed NATO to ignore these assurances. "

alot of grim reading in that link btw. I might just dump the entire article in here later.


Thx I'm aware of that, I think Mearsheimer or someone else pointed that out in a lecture that I watched.

People like Meanwhile will just deny / dodge / deflect as per usual.
Member
Posts: 56,398
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 585,113.49
Mar 9 2023 09:22am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Mar 9 2023 03:16pm)
Then what are Chinese, Russian "interests" ?

"The Trump administration maintained close ties with the institution and multiple Hoover affiliates were assigned top positions in government. Scott Atlas, one Hoover fellow, was known for pushing against public health measures as a top Trump advisor in the COVID-19 pandemic, and was condemned in a Stanford faculty vote."
source; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Institution

Lol antivax institute ??

LOOOl In "Why Russia won't invade Ukrainistan," published three days before the Russian invasion of Ukraine in Asia Times, Goldman incorrectly predicted that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine


You discredited experts because they were old
Now you are discrediting institutions
Are you also refuting the DerSpiegel article ?

what part of the paper published, by the american think tank, do you not agree with ?

finally you mentioned "Scott Atlas, one Hoover fellow, was known for pushing against public health measures as a top Trump advisor in the COVID-19 pandemic, and was condemned in a Stanford faculty vote." If you had read the link you quoted back to me you would have seen that the Hoover Institute is tied to Stanford. This reminds of the time when you provided a video to champion your position, and, when I pointed out that the video actually did not champion your position, your response was "I didnt watch the video". I have no problem accepting a loss in a discussion - for instance the military spending of China - it would be meanwhile 1 ferdia 0 for that, you provided a good counter arguement/correction of my statement. However here and now for this point I am scoring it Ferdia 1 Meanwhile 0, and for the historic argument of whether a document was signed re : Nato expansion thats a Djunior 1 and someone else 0.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 9 2023 09:29am
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Mar 9 2023 09:27am
Quote (ferdia @ 9 Mar 2023 16:22)
You discredited experts because they were old
Now you are discrediting institutions

what part of the paper published, by the american think tank, do you not agree with ?


Sorry for my reaction, note down im not mocking you be sure of that. Btw you are able to accept arguments sometimes and i never saw this on these forums yet.
But well, this was too much, can't take their stances, "predictions", and "explanations" seriously... This said i think we should also have to make shorter posts because of the TLDR.

Quote (Djunior @ 9 Mar 2023 16:22)
Yes, you're absolutely dishonest.
What I posted cannot be refuted
You should bow out and leave, cya


Cya VladLen :lol:



This post was edited by Meanwhile on Mar 9 2023 09:28am
Member
Posts: 56,398
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 585,113.49
Mar 9 2023 09:32am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Mar 9 2023 03:27pm)
Sorry for my reaction, note down im not mocking you be sure of that. Btw you are able to accept arguments sometimes and i never saw this on these forums yet.
But well, this was too much, can't take their stances, "predictions", and "explanations" seriously... This said i think we should also have to make shorter posts because of the TLDR.



Cya VladLen :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIH4SpaC2v0


most people are too invested in their point of view and get triggered too easily. I try not to trigger people even when we have a different view. I accept people have a different view and its OK to have a different view. I also accept that some people are not OK that other people have a different point of view. Its an exercise in patience. Also your not wrong. that article is long. However it covered alot of the conversations we have been having recently so I thought it apt to post it all, without redactions. If you seriously dont like or disagree with anything in it, just quote the section and we can talk about it.

Finally, if you have another source for think tanks, feel free to send it to me and i will go read (i did real several papers from several think tanks today, but I will be blunt, if the think tank said the russian invasion was completely unprovoked, i would simply close the window because thats bull****).

so TLDR: i typically dont post long.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 9 2023 09:42am
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Mar 9 2023 09:39am
Quote (ferdia @ 9 Mar 2023 16:32)
most people are too invested in their point of view and get triggered too easily. I try not to trigger people even when we have a different view. I accept people have a different view and its OK to have a different view. Also your not wrong. that article is long. However it covered alot of the conversations we have been having recently so I thought it apt to post it all, without redactions.


I think we all know US have interests, but only talking and focusing on this specifically, with unreliable sources and all the time is... Simply dishonest...
Member
Posts: 56,398
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 585,113.49
Mar 9 2023 09:45am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Mar 9 2023 03:39pm)
I think we all know US have interests, but only talking and focusing on this specifically, with unreliable sources and all the time is... Simply dishonest...



If the US was not involved in Ukraine prior to 2022 then you would have a very good argument. However the state aid provided to Ukraine by the USA, the proof of which (source) was previously posted and is readily available (The US Government posts this information online) highlights that the USA are a key component as to the causes of the conflict. Using the published information, from the US Government alone, nevermind all the other sources, is sufficient for my point to be valid and to refute the claim of unreliable sources. If you want me to post the sources again ( US investment in Ukraine 2014-todate) I will.

this is not even including the on-the-record statements by Biden “For God’s sake, this man”—meaning Putin—“cannot remain in power.”





and you can google Victoria Nuland 2014 Ukraine.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 9 2023 09:53am
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Mar 9 2023 09:54am
Quote (ferdia @ 9 Mar 2023 16:45)
If the US was not involved in Ukraine prior to 2022 then you would have a very good argument. However the state aid provided to Ukraine by the USA, the proof of which (source) was previously posted and is readily available (The US Government posts this information online) highlights that the USA are a key component as to the causes of the conflict. Using the published information, from the US Government alone, nevermind all the other sources, is sufficient for my point to be valid and to refute the claim of unreliable sources. If you want me to post the sources again ( US investment in Ukraine 2014-todate) I will.

this is not even including the on-the-record statements by Biden “For God’s sake, this man”—meaning Putin—“cannot remain in power.”

https://i.imgur.com/zYdLPRk.png


This is a complete nosense to argue on US military assistance / program metrics





This post was edited by Meanwhile on Mar 9 2023 09:56am
Member
Posts: 56,398
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 585,113.49
Mar 9 2023 09:59am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Mar 9 2023 03:54pm)
This is a complete nosense to argue on US military assistance / program metrics

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8-aPdoLMfXg/maxresdefault.jpg

You are openly asking for UKraine to be annexed by Russia, against its will, correct me if you think that Ukrainians want to be annexed (with all the crimes going with it)


If you want to win the point relating to military assistance, you should give an example of any other country that the US has invest as much money into over the last 12 years (hint: dont use Taiwan), explain why it invested that much, accept I may have a counter argument and then we can see who wins the point. However, a billion here, a billion there, pretty soon we are talking about real money. The fact that the US provides weapons to other countries (in quantity) should already be a red flag.

I am not openly asking for Ukraine to be annexed by Russia - I produced an article which, purported to, outline the current state of affairs in Ukraine (i.e. in a protracted war, Russia simply has more men, ergo more likely to win). You will note I also referenced a Ukrainian poll which highlighted that 97% of Ukrainians want all of Ukraine (including Crimea) back, and they believe they will win the war.

stating what is likely to happen (the war, a russian win) does not mean that I like it.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 9 2023 10:12am
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1235023512352235323545001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll