d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev1231623172318231923205001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 20,044
Joined: Apr 13 2016
Gold: 32,397.50
Mar 6 2023 04:30am
Quote (ferdia @ Mar 6 2023 09:38am)
You did read the part where it said "BBC: China says it will increase military spending by more than 7% this year, while warning of "escalating" threats."
You did read the part where the US has repeatedly called China a "Threat" ?
If youi dont call the Russia / Ukrainian events a war between the West and Russia then I guess any...conflict... involving the US and China can be called a "special operation".

Some years ago, 2 men broke into a house, killed the occupant and after working a bit, dumped the parts into a local canal. The initial thought was that they were robbers and the guy was unfortunate to be at home.
It later came to light that the occupant was of the same nationality, and his girlfriend was that nationality too. On further investigation it was determined that the guy had been systematically torturing his girlfriend for months. she phoned home to try to get help but her parents were out. Her brother answered the phone. He said he would get their parents to call her. He did not. He phoned 2 men in ireland and they dealt with the matter.

there is such a thing as pre-meditated. The entire narrative of Russia is entirely to blame is competely ignoring the fact that the US IS ON RECORD of replacing the Ukrainian government via a coup. The calls are freely available to listen to on youtube and no doubt there is a book about it too.


The distinction I am making is between a direct conflict and a potential proxy war, which as I said is probable.

On one hand we are hearing MSM in the west is good for nothing, and then we are using the BBC as a basis for discussion.
Have your cake and eat it then :D

China has aspirations to become a superpower. The US is the current superpower. If China wants to compete it will need to modernize its military capability.
As a detterent, for force projection or for a potential conflict. Essentially, strengthening its hand.

Is it the fault of the US that China has these aspirations?

We are getting to the point now of blaming the US for every action taken by other global powers, hy their own free will.
Any action with global consequences taken by Russia or China for example, is directly affected by the US. Without a doubt. That is a reality of the US being a global superpower and other powers seeking to carve out their own space geopolitically.
There are diverging interests.

Saying that the US is primarily responsible for Russia's invasion of Ukraine, or for Chinas miltary spending is erroneous.
The primary responsibility is with Putin and Xi.
Putin could have chosen not to invade Ukraine.
Xi could have chosen another path for China than increased miltary spending.

The US replacing the Ukraine government is also a dishonest representation of events.
Were Amrrican intelligence services operating in
Ukraine pre 2014. Its safe to assume, yes.
Are we expected to believe Russian operatives were also not operating in Ukraine?
Of course they were.
It was under Kremlin direction that protestors were murdered and suppressed. You ought to know that.

To be clear I didn't say Russia is solely to blame, I said they are primarily to blame. So don't misappropriated what I am saying.

What I'm countering is this idea the US is solely to blame for all of these events. Which to my understanding is what your position is implying.
Member
Posts: 56,371
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 581,199.86
Mar 6 2023 06:00am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 6 2023 10:30am)
The distinction I am making is between a direct conflict and a potential proxy war, which as I said is probable.

On one hand we are hearing MSM in the west is good for nothing, and then we are using the BBC as a basis for discussion.
Have your cake and eat it then :D

China has aspirations to become a superpower. The US is the current superpower. If China wants to compete it will need to modernize its military capability.
As a detterent, for force projection or for a potential conflict. Essentially, strengthening its hand.

Is it the fault of the US that China has these aspirations?

We are getting to the point now of blaming the US for every action taken by other global powers, hy their own free will.
Any action with global consequences taken by Russia or China for example, is directly affected by the US. Without a doubt. That is a reality of the US being a global superpower and other powers seeking to carve out their own space geopolitically.
There are diverging interests.

Saying that the US is primarily responsible for Russia's invasion of Ukraine, or for Chinas miltary spending is erroneous.
The primary responsibility is with Putin and Xi.
Putin could have chosen not to invade Ukraine.
Xi could have chosen another path for China than increased miltary spending.

The US replacing the Ukraine government is also a dishonest representation of events.
Were Amrrican intelligence services operating in
Ukraine pre 2014. Its safe to assume, yes.
Are we expected to believe Russian operatives were also not operating in Ukraine?
Of course they were.
It was under Kremlin direction that protestors were murdered and suppressed. You ought to know that.

To be clear I didn't say Russia is solely to blame, I said they are primarily to blame. So don't misappropriated what I am saying.

What I'm countering is this idea the US is solely to blame for all of these events. Which to my understanding is what your position is implying.



I agree with most of that. and to be clear: no single party is solely to blame and I wont go into a %'s of who is more to blame, and there is no point putting a caveat in, we each have our own views of causes of the conflict.

Alot of what you said is very nuanced and balanced and therefore its very easy for me to agree with what you have posted. well said.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 6 2023 06:05am
Member
Posts: 16,411
Joined: Apr 9 2007
Gold: 12,059.17
Mar 6 2023 06:53am
Quote (ferdia @ 6 Mar 2023 13:00)
I agree with most of that. and to be clear: no single party is solely to blame and I wont go into a %'s of who is more to blame, and there is no point putting a caveat in, we each have our own views of causes of the conflict.

Alot of what you said is very nuanced and balanced and therefore its very easy for me to agree with what you have posted. well said.


The west has its softpower that brings people there.
Living in western world is cool: we are relatively rich and free people.
On comparison:
Living in Russia (outside main cities) is full of crap.
Living in Russia occupied country is even more crap, just because the Russians have at least some little respect for their own guys.
Countries were always turning away from Russia, and Russia was always keeping and conquering them by force or treason or combination of both.
Russia is enslaving people, and forcing them into army to enslave even more people.
Its a pure definition of evilness.
If you give them Ukraine they will ask for Baltics/Poland.
If you give them Baltics/Poland they will ask for Eastern Germany and other Eastern countries like Czech.
Half of Europe once again under Russian occupation, thats their dream.
And of course nobody said it will end there. There will be no NATO already, so why don't go further west?
Member
Posts: 5,151
Joined: Jun 5 2020
Gold: 301.67
Warn: 10%
Mar 6 2023 07:35am
Quote (Ironfister @ Mar 6 2023 01:53pm)
The west has its softpower that brings people there.
Living in western world is cool: we are relatively rich and free people.
On comparison:
Living in Russia (outside main cities) is full of crap.
Living in Russia occupied country is even more crap, just because the Russians have at least some little respect for their own guys.
Countries were always turning away from Russia, and Russia was always keeping and conquering them by force or treason or combination of both.
Russia is enslaving people, and forcing them into army to enslave even more people.
Its a pure definition of evilness.
If you give them Ukraine they will ask for Baltics/Poland.
If you give them Baltics/Poland they will ask for Eastern Germany and other Eastern countries like Czech.
Half of Europe once again under Russian occupation, thats their dream.
And of course nobody said it will end there. There will be no NATO already, so why don't go further west?



which countries did russia conquer? or tried to?

which countries turned „always“ away?

russia enslaving people? we germans are enslaving our own people with timework and that shit! people dont even realize what enslaving means.

and that point with baltiks poland snd germany sre completely bullshit


your post is full of complete bullshit.
Member
Posts: 15,940
Joined: Jun 27 2010
Gold: 102,354.50
Mar 6 2023 07:35am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Mar 5 2023 10:58pm)
I know, this is the political insults you are using: "hypocrite", "tool", whatever that can bypass moderation, and you are using ALOT.

---------------

With a softer style Douglas Macgregor could get some credibility, unfortunately his shit is so polarized it destroys itself.

Let's continue:

"Russia is striking Ukraine with accurate devastating firepower"
"The Ukrainian army has been bled to death"
"The Ukrainians fall back and regroup or they'll be ANNIHILATED"
"The Ukrainian regime is ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE"


So i go deeper: 3-4 months ago:

"700.000 Russian troops are now devouring Ukraine"
"Things cannot go on like this any longer in Ukraine"
"Ukraine capitulation is on the horizon"
"The Armed Forces of Ukraine are desperate"


etc... Douglas Macgregor got butthurt so much since Trump admin that he decided to sell his ass to Russia or something like this. I was expecting something bad; it's even worse.


1) What has "Trump admin" to do with this conflict? NOTHING, blame Biden if you want to address the US president (Trump is against this war FYI, lol).

2) MacGregor is exactly right, Ukraine is desperate and crumbles if not receiving continuous and massive Western support. Zelensky keeps crying for more weapons / tanks / jets and NATO involvement. Completely desperate.

3) YOU should check your language on this forum, I'll give you one example, I got plenty bookmarked. Come at me if you want to try again ;)

Quote (Meanwhile @ Dec 10 2022 01:32pm)
Sounds like Putin and the fucked dogs supporting his regime are happy of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlX9nK_Szic



Quote (theCrossbones @ Mar 6 2023 12:58am)
please point me to where I state attacking civilians ok because some other country did it.


The US has a history of bombing the crap out of other countries, I've pointed out you're a hypocrite (you go REEEEE when civilians die in Ukraine, now look at millions of Vietnamese civilians that died which is only one example).


Quote (ferdia @ Mar 5 2023 11:00pm)
to be fair here, i tend to agree with meanwhile here. I am taking what Douglas Macgregor is saying with a pinch of salt and his langauge is too one sided, its not moderate at all. this also goes for several other americans that are all doom and gloom.


If not for a gargantuan effort (100+ BILLION aid from the US alone) Ukraine would've succumbed long ago, most likely within the first months. MacGregor is right about that and we all know it.

He's also completely right about Ukraine losing manpower and is bleeding white (losing that many people every day is not sustainable and Russia simply has a lot more people).

MSM wont even report on Ukrainian casualties (soldiers).

Do you prefer MSM?
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Mar 6 2023 07:38am
Quote (ferdia @ 6 Mar 2023 10:04)
Unfortunately there has been a further escalation. I will provide various sources.

CNBC: China to increase defense spending by 7.2%
Financial Times: Defence expenditure to rise by 7.2% in 2023 compared with 5.7% growth in public expenditure
BBC: China says it will increase military spending by more than 7% this year, while warning of "escalating" threats.
Euronews: China to increase military spending by 7.2%

Now I know several users seem to think that this just "magically happened" and there are "abosolutely no causes, threats or justification" but more rationale people would say something like: It is clear that the US wants to send Russia back into the Stone Age, and after they are done with Russia, China is next. Therefore China would behove itself to increase its military spending. And now they are.


It was +6.8% increase the year before, so no: can't say there's an escalation.

previous increases:



Quote (Djunior @ 6 Mar 2023 14:35)
3) YOU should check your language on this forum, I'll give you one example, I got plenty bookmarked. Come at me if you want to try again ;)


My biggest "hypocrite" "tool"

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Mar 6 2023 07:42am
Member
Posts: 56,371
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 581,199.86
Mar 6 2023 07:47am
Quote (Djunior @ Mar 6 2023 01:35pm)
If not for a gargantuan effort...Ukraine would've succumbed long ago, most likely within the first months. MacGregor is right about that and we all know it.

He's also completely right about Ukraine losing manpower and is bleeding white (losing that many people every day is not sustainable and Russia simply has a lot more people).

MSM wont even report on Ukrainian casualties (soldiers).


that i completely agree with. to my understanding he thought the war would be over sooner as he probably thought what sane leader would preside over the destruction of their country. that was Macgregor's error in the judgement of Zelensky. i left out the stuff not addressed to me, and I have already repeatedly voiced my concerns of "Main Stream Media".

Quote (Meanwhile @ Mar 6 2023 01:38pm)
It was +6.8% increase the year before, so no: can't say there's an escalation.

previous increases:

https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/267035/china-military-spending.jpg

My biggest "hypocrite" "tool"


Do you have any other sources that you can use re: Chinese Military spending. The numbers dont add up (they appear to be too low). all i could find is a side comment which stated "Observers say the budget omits much of China’s spending on weaponry, most of which is developed domestically. " and this : https://news.usni.org/2021/10/26/mystery-shrouds-chinese-defense-spending

finally I must thank you for correcting me via this graph, thank you for posting it.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 6 2023 08:01am
Member
Posts: 16,411
Joined: Apr 9 2007
Gold: 12,059.17
Mar 6 2023 08:26am
Quote (Bananii @ 6 Mar 2023 14:35)
which countries did russia conquer? or tried to?

which countries turned „always“ away?

russia enslaving people? we germans are enslaving our own people with timework and that shit! people dont even realize what enslaving means.

and that point with baltiks poland snd germany sre completely bullshit

your post is full of complete bullshit.


Ad 1) Russia attacked and occupied Poland in 18th century, occupied Ukraine, attacked Finland in 1939, Russia also attacked Chechnya in 1999. Just some examples.

Ad 2) Czechia tried to run away in 1968, Hungary tried to run away in 1956, Poland also made Solidarity to run away from Soviet Union, although we didnt go to fight Soviet tanks and stayed Underground instead waiting for ussr to have serious problems.

Ad 3) when you are forced to go to war and kill people, otherwise you will not have any food or heat, its enslavement.
When you are sentenced to prison for calling war a war, its enslavement.
There are regions of Russia where average earnings is just 400usd per month.
Want more money? Go to war and you will be paid more, and your family will get a lot of money if you die for Putin.
Isn't it enslavement? It is imo.

Ad 4) in a december 2021 speech mr Putin said clearly that he considers Eastern european countries as his sphere of influence.
Its repeated in leaks.
Putin believes he can frighten west, it will collapse and give him whatever he wants. Now the question what exactly countries he wants.
Probably Germany as its very industrial and he could make a proper use of German engineers and workers for building military equipment. Also it makes him a good excuse to attack Germany, because of german nazi past.
Member
Posts: 28,875
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 10,712.00
Mar 6 2023 08:39am
Clown world media at it again. Literally dozens of MSM platforms with the same headline this morning of Russians 'forced to fight with shovels'. Totally original reporting and not synchronized.

Quote
Russian reservists could be using "shovels" for "hand-to-hand" combat in Ukraine due to a shortage of ammunition, the UK's Ministry of Defence says.

In late February, reservists described being ordered to assault a Ukrainian position "armed with only 'firearms and shovels'", the ministry said in its latest intelligence update.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-shovels-russia-troops-ukraine-b2294545.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-fight-shovels-ammo-shortage-bakhmut-prigozhin-wagner-rcna73501

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64855760

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11824349/Russian-troops-forced-use-SHOVELS-hand-hand-combat-Ukraine.html

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/putins-troops-forced-fight-shovels-29380393
Member
Posts: 16,411
Joined: Apr 9 2007
Gold: 12,059.17
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1231623172318231923205001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll