Dmitri, we already know all of the accounts are the same agent; You think the good guys are slacking on intelligence?

West is best comrade.

You are both full of shit. human piss really.

Go have a google at US wars, and look at civilians killed. We are talking about hundreds of thousands there, not 8000. If you are gonna bring morals into this, your "side" is the devil-incarnate.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Mar 2 2023 02:44pm

601,027 civilans dead due to violence from 2003-2006 in iraq. That is 200.000 per year.

How can you compare 200.000 to 8000?

Lancet is a legit source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties

Let me guess, your gonna argue that those civilan deaths had nothing to do with US-invasion? Or that US killed something like 15000 civilians in the first month, ignore that as well?

Let me guess, whataboutism. Rules for thee. I have no idea what the 2 of you are role-playing as, probably stick to gender-changes.

"We estimate that between March 18, 2003, and June, 2006, an additional 654,965 (392,979–942,636) Iraqis have died above what would have been expected on the basis of the pre-invasion crude mortality rate as a consequence of the coalition invasion. Of these deaths, we estimate that 601,027 (426,369–793,663) were due to violence"

This post was edited by ownyaah on Mar 2 2023 02:43pm

cute whataboutism, i never claimed the US haven't targeted civilians themselves. i don't defend their war crimes. so i don't accept your dumb excuses for russian war crimes, kremlin bot.

if ukraine war had 200k civilan casualties in 2022, i would say they are doing "an american"

Любовь зла, полюбишь и козла!

so lets be clear here: attrocities commited by western forces are off topic but attrocities commited by China and Russia are allowed ? if anything is off topic, its mentioning china. china is not involved in the conflict.



i think the narrative they will spin is that that was a different war, no comment, and that you have to forget about the past, dont look at other wars (or even the causes for russia to invade) and just look at the russian invasion as the first war to ever take place, in the world, ever. I would agree that through that lens russia is terrible.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 2 2023 03:40pm

i wouldn't be shocked if once the dust has settled, your 8k number, wherever you got that from, will turn out to be significantly higher. so far, it's really hard to tell with all the chaos, all the propaganda, and an active war going on. the lower estimates you see are just those of confirmed civilian casualties - the real number is likely many times that - and that's not even including the reported torture, rape, and abductions...

again, pointing at other nations' crimes doesn't magically make russia's war crimes any better. it's a transparent attempt to silence criticism - it does nothing to justify the actions.

afaik he got that number from the UN. let me guess, the UN is not a reputable source either ?

Number of civilian casualties during the war in Ukraine 2023. The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 8,006 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of February 26, 2023. Of them, 488 were children.

/i would suggest that its impossible to verify total injured / dead and would agree it must be higher. but 200K ? no. oh did i whataboutism there.



where do you see anyone arguing for silencing criticism here ? you are literally creating your own narrative. you are dreaming up what you think we are saying when we are not saying it.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 2 2023 03:45pm

The position held, by neutrals, is that Russia warned the West, repeatedly, to keep its hands off Ukraine. Gernany understood this in 2008. The US understood it but wanted to do it anyway. This is Fact.
The US (the key driver of the West) toppled the (corrupt) government in Ukraine in 2014 and replaced it with its own people/government. This is Fact.
In response Russia stole Crimea. They could not tolerate losing their naval port. This is Fact. (yes other reasons as well)
Since 2014 Ukraine has been given 52? Billion in arms/weaponry/you name it they have it, in preparation of this war. in 2018 they said this war would occur sometime in 2022. This is Fact.
Ukraine enshrined in its constituion that it would join Nato, and together with western forces moved ever closer to being in Nato. This is Fact.
Ignoring for a moment the events in the lead up to the war - which again - have been independantly verified (bombing of civilians by Ukraine), Russia invaded Ukraine. Its not a special operation its an Invasion. This is Fact.

My view is they wanted to topple the Ukrainian government and replace, in out, shake it all about. They failed. This is my opinion.
Ukraine has put up an amazing defence since then and the west continues to arm/train Ukraine. Russian meanwhile is bombing the shit out of Ukraine almost indescrimintly. This is Fact.
Western powers told Ukraine not to negotiate with Russia last year. This is Fact.
The US and Russia are currently in a position where both sides believe they can get a result. therefore no peace in 2023. This is my opinion, not a Fact.

Nowl if ANYONE disagrees with any of that, go read the source material that has literally been spoon fed to you throughout this topic.

that is not a pro-russian rant, it is a rant that some people are discounting all of that and are solely looking at events after the invasion.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 2 2023 03:56pm