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#22901
Mar 2 2023 12:14pm
Very important to note, US rules of engagement are more relaxed than Russian. How do we know this? look at the Iraqi war and civilian casualties.

And I wouldn´t consider US deliberately killing civilians btw, that is also a stupid statement (in kinetic conflicts).

This post was edited by ownyaah on Mar 2 2023 12:15pm
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#22902
Mar 2 2023 12:15pm
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Mar 2 2023 06:10pm)
How many civilians need to die for it to be evidence of direct targetting, in your opinion? Or is it a percentage based thing?

Like I said, I realize many civilians have died, I just don't get where the jump to " they are intentionally targetting civilians" is happening. I'm sure there have been horrible war crimes on both sides, I'm sure commands to attack certain areas have caused civilian casualties, but I haven't seen anything that makes me believe it is a strategic goal to kill civilians.

Would you accept Ukraine has an incentive to lie about those things as well? They are reliant on international support, that is something that is sure to garner it IMO


Do I accept that information war is an aspect of war. Yes, I think we all agree it is.
We have seen how willing Russia is to throw its own men into the meatgrinder, it is not a long journey from there to assume they would have the same disdain for Ukrainian lives.

Furthermore, the question of whether or not the action was deliberate is important; but it is secondary to the abhorrence of the consequences of the action.

If I am honest I think you are being quite obtuse about not recognizing just how many strikes there have been that have hit apartment buildings, shopping malls, hospitals, schools and so on; And not exclusively on the front lines, this is well into Ukrainian interior.
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#22903
Mar 2 2023 12:16pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 2 2023 09:15pm)
Do I accept that information war is an aspect of war. Yes, I think we all agree it is.
We have seen how willing Russia is to throw its own men into the meatgrinder, it is not a long journey from there to assume they would have the same disdain for Ukrainian lives.

Furthermore, the question of whether or not the action was deliberate is important; but it is secondary to the abhorrence of the consequences of the action.

If I am honest I think you are being quite obtuse about not recognizing just how many strikes there have been that have hit apartment buildings, shopping malls, hospitals, schools and so on; And not exclusively on the front lines, this is well into Ukrainian interior.


No matter what you say, UN says 8000 killed in 1 full year. That is incredibly low, considering Ukraine size/population. That is a better ratio than Nato/US.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Mar 2 2023 12:16pm
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#22904
Mar 2 2023 12:17pm
Quote (ownyaah @ 2 Mar 2023 19:12)
Henry kissinger was a realist, and i respect that. I take that as a compliment.



There has never been deliberate killing of civilians by Russian military command. It is factual, you have to be braindamaged to think otherwise.



can you explain how it would be possible to conduct war, in a pre-war population of 50million, without causing xk amounts of civilian deaths per year?

The answer is --> no war at all.


nop, you only have to look at reports that are NOT kremlin approved to confirm that definitely happened on multiple occasions.
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#22905
Mar 2 2023 12:18pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Mar 2 2023 06:13pm)
There’s a reason why we have terms such as collateral
damage. When an US air strike kills some goat farmers in Afghanistan we don’t dishonestly label it as “targeting civilians” instead we have an honest assessment that wars are not clean and mistakes happen very often.

But once again in rules for thee and not for me fashion we chose to frame an apartment getting hit in Ukraine by dumb bombs in worst possible framing as “targeting civilians”, which is more representative of our own bias and wishing things to be true as to create a clear moral right-wrong dichotomy.


You are attributing a position to me that I am not attributing to myself; I deride civilians killed by the US, UK, Russia, Saudi, Israel in the exact same way.
It is you that is using previous wars as some kind of normalization for what Russia is doing now; You are completely undermining your own point with hypocrisy.
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#22906
Mar 2 2023 12:18pm
Quote (fender @ Mar 2 2023 09:17pm)
nop, you only have to look at reports that are NOT kremlin approved to confirm that definitely happened on multiple occasions.


I only look at UN numbers btw, which is 8100 in 1 full year.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Mar 2 2023 12:18pm
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#22907
Mar 2 2023 12:19pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 2 2023 09:18pm)
You are attributing a position to me that I am not attributing to myself; I deride civilians killed by the US, UK, Russia, Saudi, Israel in the exact same way.
It is you that is using previous wars as some kind of normalization for what Russia is doing now; You are completely undermining your own point with hypocrisy.


your expectations that war should be carried out with 0 civilian deaths is unrealistic and infantile.
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#22908
Mar 2 2023 12:19pm
Quote (ownyaah @ Mar 2 2023 06:14pm)
Very important to note, US rules of engagement are more relaxed than Russian. How do we know this? look at the Iraqi war and civilian casualties.

And I wouldn´t consider US deliberately killing civilians btw, that is also a stupid statement (in kinetic conflicts).


Well that makes everything okay then comrade, continue as you were. :wallbash:

Apologists for Russia in the guise of humanists. Pathetic.
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#22909
Mar 2 2023 12:20pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Mar 2 2023 09:19pm)
Well that makes everything okay then comrade, continue as you were. :wallbash:

Apologists for Russia in the guise of humanists. Pathetic.


I actually was an apologist for US in that instance, your view of war and civilan casualties are unrealistic.

Quote
I wouldn´t consider US deliberately killing civilians btw, that is also a stupid statement (in kinetic conflicts).
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#22910
Mar 2 2023 12:20pm
Quote (ownyaah @ Mar 2 2023 06:19pm)
your expectations that war should be carried out with 0 civilian deaths is unrealistic and infantile.


What about special military operations?
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