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Mar 20 2022 03:07am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 20 2022 10:42am)
Mariupol is located between the Sea of Azov and two Russian deployment areas on Crimea and in Donezk oblast. The city was always more difficult to hold than other large cities in Ukraine. Also, Mariupol is the only major city that the Russians were able to fully encircle, which they failed to do so far in Kyiv, Kharkiv, Sumy, Tchernihiv or Mykolaiv.

There might be some sort of domino effect though: once Mariupol falls, this frees up Russian forces in the South East which could help push back Ukraine's main regular military forces which are stationed on the battlefront of Donezk and Luhansk. Then, the joined up Russian forces from the south and the Donezk/Luhansk regions could apply pressure on Kharkiv from its south and south east, which in turn would reduce Ukrainian capabilities for divisionary counterattacks in the region, counterattacks which have up until now diverted Russian resources away from Kyiv's eastern flank. This, in turn, would make it more easy to close the encirclement of Kyiv.

Now, the Ukrainian high command is obviously aware of this threat; we can assume that they and their Western allies have been preparing for such a development.


Am no military expert but my understanding is that Mariupol is a large city that is heavily resisting the Russians. The result of its encirclement could indicate how other cities will fare if they too, in time, get encircled.
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Mar 20 2022 03:24am
Quote (Lebanon961 @ 20 Mar 2022 12:07)
Am no military expert but my understanding is that Mariupol is a large city that is heavily resisting the Russians. The result of its encirclement could indicate how other cities will fare if they too, in time, get encircled.


Mariupol is an enclave of neo-nazi batallions (I'd call them pro-Ukrainian militia) "Azov" and "Donbass" and they will fight to death especially recognizing that Chechens will never take them alive. I'd tell that Mariupol is no more. Tchernihiv and Kharkiv are the cities of more interest and far more resistance (if any) to indicate how the things will go on for Kyev/Odessa.
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Mar 20 2022 03:55am
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Mar 20 2022 03:59am
Quote (Norlander @ Mar 20 2022 11:24am)
Mariupol is an enclave of neo-nazi batallions (I'd call them pro-Ukrainian militia) "Azov" and "Donbass" and they will fight to death especially recognizing that Chechens will never take them alive. I'd tell that Mariupol is no more. Tchernihiv and Kharkiv are the cities of more interest and far more resistance (if any) to indicate how the things will go on for Kyev/Odessa.


What about the civilians living in Mariupol? Do you think they will also resist a grueling siege the death? Because that is probably more important.
If the civilians mostly leave and only the militias remain, then yes the city can not be taken without destroying most of it because the militias will use any and all random buildings as cover.
A small group take cover in a building -> bombed -> more than half the cell survives and goes to fight from another building -> repeat.
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Mar 20 2022 04:12am
Quote (Lebanon961 @ 20 Mar 2022 12:59)
What about the civilians living in Mariupol? Do you think they will also resist a grueling siege the death? Because that is probably more important.
If the civilians mostly leave and only the militias remain, then yes the city can not be taken without destroying most of it because the militias will use any and all random buildings as cover.
A small group take cover in a building -> bombed -> more than half the cell survives and goes to fight from another building -> repeat.


Russian officials are talking about 20k civilians being evaluated so far. I would trust that info. It also shows how slow it goes.
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Mar 20 2022 05:32am
Quote (Lebanon961 @ 20 Mar 2022 10:07)
Am no military expert but my understanding is that Mariupol is a large city that is heavily resisting the Russians. The result of its encirclement could indicate how other cities will fare if they too, in time, get encircled.


The point is that Mariupol, due to its unique location, was far easier to encircle than the other major Ukrainian cities. If Kyiv or Kharkiv get fully encircled as well, Ukraine will lose this war, no matter how the subsequent siege actually goes or how long it takes.

Quote (Norlander @ 20 Mar 2022 11:12)
Russian officials are talking about [...]. I would trust that info.


:lol: :rofl: :lol:

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Mar 20 2022 05:33am
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Mar 20 2022 05:45am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 20 Mar 2022 14:32)
The point is that Mariupol, due to its unique location, was far easier to encircle than the other major Ukrainian cities. If Kyiv or Kharkiv get fully encircled as well, Ukraine will lose this war, no matter how the subsequent siege actually goes or how long it takes.



:lol: :rofl: :lol:


Funny, I use both Ukrainian and Russian officials as legit info.
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Mar 20 2022 06:02am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 20 2022 08:42am)
Mariupol is located between the Sea of Azov and two Russian deployment areas on Crimea and in Donezk oblast. The city was always more difficult to hold than other large cities in Ukraine. Also, Mariupol is the only major city that the Russians were able to fully encircle, which they failed to do so far in Kyiv, Kharkiv, Sumy, Tchernihiv or Mykolaiv.




There might be some sort of domino effect though: once Mariupol falls, this frees up Russian forces in the South East which could help push back Ukraine's main regular military forces which are stationed on the battlefront of Donezk and Luhansk. Then, the joined up Russian forces from the south and the Donezk/Luhansk regions could apply pressure on Kharkiv from its south and south east, which in turn would reduce Ukrainian capabilities for divisionary counterattacks in the region, counterattacks which have up until now diverted Russian resources away from Kyiv's eastern flank. This, in turn, would make it more easy to close the encirclement of Kyiv.

Now, the Ukrainian high command is obviously aware of this threat; we can assume that they and their Western allies have been preparing for such a development.


ISW said they think the freeing up of Russian forces after the fall of Mariupol won't be significant in terms of tipping the scales of the war in the South. It makes sense somewhat, with Mariupol being a hostile city they'll need a lot of forces to hold it, plus the Russians have taken significant losses in the region so we don't know what proportion of forces could push up North. The urban fighting will cause even more losses over the coming weeks

Regarding your point about counterattacks on Kyiv's eastern flank, this is conducted by Ukrainian army and TDF in the Sumy region, towns like Romny that Russia don't even control

There isn't a way to sugarcoat that Southern Ukraine will most likely fall after Mariupol, the big question is whether the JFO can escape or at least prevent being encircled
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Mar 20 2022 06:08am
Quote (Norlander @ Mar 20 2022 11:45am)
Funny, I use both Ukrainian and Russian officials as legit info.


As direct combatants, they are the two worst sources of info. US/EU/UK info is more reliable and less biased, and even then the fog of war clouds everything

Like today a Ukrainian MP said civilians evacuated from Mariupol were stopped by Russian soldiers and redirected to Russia, where they've been sent to remote cities and forced to sign agreements to work for no pay. It seems ridiculous, I don't believe it, but the truth will get out from a newsworthy source at some point
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Mar 20 2022 06:23am
Quote (dro94 @ Mar 20 2022 08:08am)
As direct combatants, they are the two worst sources of info. US/EU/UK info is more reliable and less biased, and even then the fog of war clouds everything

Like today a Ukrainian MP said civilians evacuated from Mariupol were stopped by Russian soldiers and redirected to Russia, where they've been sent to remote cities and forced to sign agreements to work for no pay. It seems ridiculous, I don't believe it, but the truth will get out from a newsworthy source at some point



Best sources are ones which for the most part don’t have a side. The west has a side here and it’s pretty obvious in their reporting. It may be difficult to find but, middle eastern, Indian, & other Asian sources would probably be most impartial about reporting.
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