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#221
Feb 13 2020 04:48pm
^berniesanders2020 found your thread
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#222
Feb 13 2020 04:50pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Feb 13 2020 04:45pm)
Bernie openly admits that his healthcare plan would come with increased taxes not only for the rich, but also for the middle class. He argues that middle class families would be better off on balance by this system than by the current one.


how can he possibly say that with any certainty if he doesn't know how much it will cost? Again, I know most healthcare options are better than our ultra corrupt system that we have in place now. But Bernie has to be one of the lousiest deadbeats to walk this earth and still be revered by liberals purely on an ideological standpoint. I'm just trying to get people to think outside of their echo chambers for a sec and get people to think numbers and if his policies are actually realistically viable.

I'm also not trying to come off as someone who isnt open to learn something new though, which is mostly why i directed the question to thor
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#223
Feb 13 2020 05:00pm
Quote (ssdrmstre @ Feb 13 2020 04:37pm)
Just wanted to ask a question kinda pointed towards Thor and other bernie fans,

How do you guys feel about the pricetag on Bernie's policies? He has a tendency to refer to how bad our current system is while providing very little quantifiable facts about his universal healthcare plan. In a somewhat recent interview he openly admitted that he had no idea how much it would all cost. I think it's somewhat dangerous to not really have the numbers down and chalk all of it up to "well the billionaires will pay for it." -- Mostly because I don't think they will.

I am not arguing that we don't have a terribly broken system that caters to insurance companies and healthcare admins, but bernie's plan sounds like a lot of promises he cant possibly keep, and promises that would likely be a detriment to people who work hard for healthcare now, even if it were implemented.

Aside from healthcare, I think his "free" or "subsidized" college tuition plan is also pretty bad. Why should people who didn't go to college be paying for the art degrees etc of people who choose to go to college? College degrees are already incredibly great values here in the US. From what I've seen, student federal aid and grants has blown up the amount of bureaucracy in colleges/universities, and while I dont recommend we get rid of federal aid/grants, we shouldn't be exacerbating it by going further in that direction.

The only people who I've ever seen who had trouble paying for their student loans are people who CHOSE to go into unmarketable majors. People should not be forced to pay into that.


As a country we could easily, EASILY, pay for universal college for everyone. We regularly pay for it already in extra-budgetary expenses at the pentagon. Congress will frequently authorize extra expenditures that would more than cover the cost of Bernie's college plan. The bigger issue isn't "FREE COLLEGE WOULD BE EXPENSIVE" it's that we could redirect a small fraction of the budget from other sources, like military expenditures, into free college and we would see a much large economic return on that investment.

As for healthcare, even the most conservative estimates is that a national healthcare plan would cost 2 trillion less over ten years than we currently pay nationwide. With numbers like that even if Bernie's plan is just really expensive for some unforeseen reason he's got A LOT of wiggle room.

Fact is, we can definitely afford Bernie's most well known plans. The only reason you hear about "LOOK HOW MUCH BERNIE'S PLAN WILL COST" is because it doesn't directly benefit people with political power, like military contractors or insurance executives. When it's a policy that benefits the already powerful you will usually not hear about how many tens of billions of dollars it costs, it will just get in under the radar.
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#224
Feb 13 2020 05:05pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Feb 13 2020 10:09am)
https://pics.me.me/norway-is-socialist-and-theyre-doing-great-socialism-never-works-42980460.png


Move to norway

And learn to code bro
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#225
Feb 13 2020 05:06pm
Quote (EndlessSky @ Feb 13 2020 05:05pm)
Move to norway

And learn to code bro


I know how to do basic coding. I don't have a reason to learn more at this point
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#226
Feb 13 2020 05:19pm
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#227
Feb 13 2020 05:24pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Feb 13 2020 05:00pm)
As a country we could easily, EASILY, pay for universal college for everyone. We regularly pay for it already in extra-budgetary expenses at the pentagon. Congress will frequently authorize extra expenditures that would more than cover the cost of Bernie's college plan. The bigger issue isn't "FREE COLLEGE WOULD BE EXPENSIVE" it's that we could redirect a small fraction of the budget from other sources, like military expenditures, into free college and we would see a much large economic return on that investment.

As for healthcare, even the most conservative estimates is that a national healthcare plan would cost 2 trillion less over ten years than we currently pay nationwide. With numbers like that even if Bernie's plan is just really expensive for some unforeseen reason he's got A LOT of wiggle room.

Fact is, we can definitely afford Bernie's most well known plans. The only reason you hear about "LOOK HOW MUCH BERNIE'S PLAN WILL COST" is because it doesn't directly benefit people with political power, like military contractors or insurance executives. When it's a policy that benefits the already powerful you will usually not hear about how many tens of billions of dollars it costs, it will just get in under the radar.


For our college situation - It's not so much as I'm saying "Free college would be expensive" so much as "it it's not broken, don't fix it". I come from a pretty poor family and we had no issues whatsoever putting me through a 4 year degree at a world class university. Our system isn't without its problems, but everyone and anyone who wants to go to college can go right now. We are the world leaders in most fields of academic study, especially the marketable ones, and even a couple of the unmarketable ones. Theres a reasonable balance of government bloated bureacracy that is bearable by the market atm - why change it?

For healthcare - you probably have a reasonable point seeing as our current system is pretty much the worst of both worlds. I just disagree with it as I think most US physicians will be negatively impacted by it and there hasn't been any real numbers to say either way if it will be good or bad. To this point, I think the core issue of our current system is the corruption and sheer power insurance/healthcare admins have. Switching to a completely different system seems extreme to me as a much simpler solution exists in my mind of just ending/regulating the price gauging of private insurance companies.

to the third point - looking at how much his plans cost is a very good idea, even to his supporters. knowing if something that is "ideologically sound and fair" to you is viable and is actually the correct thing to do is pretty important when you're about to impose it on people who dont share your view.
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#228
Feb 13 2020 06:05pm
Quote (ssdrmstre @ 13 Feb 2020 23:37)
Just wanted to ask a question kinda pointed towards Thor and other bernie fans,

How do you guys feel about the pricetag on Bernie's policies? He has a tendency to refer to how bad our current system is while providing very little quantifiable facts about his universal healthcare plan. In a somewhat recent interview he openly admitted that he had no idea how much it would all cost. I think it's somewhat dangerous to not really have the numbers down and chalk all of it up to "well the billionaires will pay for it." -- Mostly because I don't think they will.

I am not arguing that we don't have a terribly broken system that caters to insurance companies and healthcare admins, but bernie's plan sounds like a lot of promises he cant possibly keep, and promises that would likely be a detriment to people who work hard for healthcare now, even if it were implemented.

Aside from healthcare, I think his "free" or "subsidized" college tuition plan is also pretty bad. Why should people who didn't go to college be paying for the art degrees etc of people who choose to go to college? College degrees are already incredibly great values here in the US. From what I've seen, student federal aid and grants has blown up the amount of bureaucracy in colleges/universities, and while I dont recommend we get rid of federal aid/grants, we shouldn't be exacerbating it by going further in that direction.

The only people who I've ever seen who had trouble paying for their student loans are people who CHOSE to go into unmarketable majors. People should not be forced to pay into that.


he should have just said "i will give everyone healthcare, and mexico will pay for it", and people would be cheering, rather than regurgitating lazy talking points by pundits on tv stations that - on a totally unrelated note (*wink wink, nudge nudge) - make huge profits from big pharma and the insurance industry.
but hey, it's highly problematic, even "dangerous" that bernie doesn't have the exact numbers (that predictably would be used to unfairly misrepresent his efforts if they turned out to be not 100% correct predictions, even if made to the best of his knowledge) for something as complex and extensive as ovehauling the whole healthcare system. all he has is that every serious estimate and even studies by conservative think tanks all predict it will be CHEAPER than continuing the current system.

seriously, the whole 'he doesn't know how to pay for it' narrative completely falls apart if you actually listened to him talk in detail about his proposals, or just read up on what is easily accessible information: https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/options-to-finance-medicare-for-all?inline=file

it's really tiresome that so many people, who quite obviously only get their information from right wing and establishment main stream media, don't have the intellectual curiosity to question those claims, just uncritically accept them as true, and then bother other people with their ignorance online...

This post was edited by fender on Feb 13 2020 06:22pm
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#229
Feb 13 2020 06:33pm
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#230
Feb 13 2020 07:08pm
Quote (Brian_D @ 13 Feb 2020 14:24)
Ill take that as a no. You should try it sometime. It has a humbling affect.

I find that people like you who say dumb shit online all day for a living have never been in a fight.

ok wannabe thug go start fights with all the people you hate. it’s a long list so get started chump lmfao, pathetic..
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