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Feb 15 2023 05:04am
Quote (ferdia @ 15 Feb 2023 10:23)
Elon Musk tweets about alot of things.

some snippets re: Ukraine ~

2014 While the US Obama administration was telling Ukraine not to go to war with Russia over Crimea at that time (US calls the shots ok) Elon Musk said that given Russia's invasion of Crimea, the U.S. should pay his company, SpaceX, for launch services into space, because his competitor uses a Russian engine in its rockets. < he was fishing for SpaceX business from the US Government here >

Then in 2022 He proposed a peace plan which involved ceding land to Russia. Ukraine threw its toys in response but accepted that his aid (SpaceX for Ukraine) earlier in the war, kept them alive. He also stated that he could not “indefinitely” fund the system’s use in Ukraine. < he was looking for the US to foot the bill, his logic is pretty solid. I mean Isreal refuses to support the US in the war in Ukraine even though they received over 150billion in aid from the US, Elon went to bat for Ukraine, you really would wonder why the US wont pay that bill. When the US government refused he then stated he would continue to foot the bill ($400M per year) >

if anyone disputes any of that or can fill in the gaps 2014-2022, by all means have at it.

https://i.imgur.com/kUMIWEf.jpg


He lost 200 billions this year, impressive. Also donated 2 billion to charities, but couldn't drop 120$M (which WILL be 400 per year): weird.

Zelensky said:
“I always say very openly, if you want to understand what Russia has done here, come to Ukraine and you will see this with your own eyes,” he said. “After that, you will tell us how to end this war, who started it, and when we can end it.”
“I don't know if someone is making an influence on him or if he is making these choices himself.”
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Feb 15 2023 05:08am
Quote (ferdia @ 15 Feb 2023 10:49)
also in the news ;

The head of Europe’s conservative parties faced an internal revolt Tuesday over comments by former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi criticizing Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Politicians from nine countries criticized the comments and several said they planned to boycott an upcoming gathering of conservatives in Naples, Italy, if Berlusconi attended, two people with direct knowledge of the exchanges told POLITICO. Berlusconi, an 86-year-old admirer of Russian President Vladimir Putin whose Forza Italia party belongs to the wider European People’s Party (EPP) grouping, sparked outrage over the weekend when he told Italian media that Zelenskyy could have avoided Russia’s invasion if only he’d not attacked the “two autonomous republics of the Donbas” in Ukraine. Berlusconi also said that he judged “very, very negatively the behavior of this gentleman.”


Berlusconi loooooooool

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Feb 15 2023 05:30am
Quote (ferdia @ Feb 15 2023 06:49am)
also in the news ;

The head of Europe’s conservative parties faced an internal revolt Tuesday over comments by former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi criticizing Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Politicians from nine countries criticized the comments and several said they planned to boycott an upcoming gathering of conservatives in Naples, Italy, if Berlusconi attended, two people with direct knowledge of the exchanges told POLITICO. Berlusconi, an 86-year-old admirer of Russian President Vladimir Putin whose Forza Italia party belongs to the wider European People’s Party (EPP) grouping, sparked outrage over the weekend when he told Italian media that Zelenskyy could have avoided Russia’s invasion if only he’d not attacked the “two autonomous republics of the Donbas” in Ukraine. Berlusconi also said that he judged “very, very negatively the behavior of this gentleman.”


I love seeing the response to statements like the one Berlusconi made, really highlights how easy it is to be a voice of opposition to the Ukraine Crusade.

It's never just "I think he is wrong" it always gets to the level of "who is paying him?!?!?! Has he visited Russia lately?!?!?"

If we could send all the people who want to fight to the last Ukrainian there, the war could be over tomorrow.
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Feb 15 2023 05:31am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Feb 15 2023 11:09am)
McGregor is a joke, i provided source. Doing comparisons with wars done 200 or 80 years ago while Russia was a defender is even a bigger joke.
Invalidated.


MacGregor is providing numbers that are based on research, for example by people closely checking obituaries in Russia and Ukraine, and reports of Ukrainian women complaining that they haven't heard from their men / spouses for a long time while they always kept in touch. Apparently Western MSM isn't even allowed to report on Ukrainian military losses because only Ukrainian civilian casualties are reported on a daily bases. But you believe the huge numbers of Russian casualties reported by Ukrainian sources (Kyiv Independent) that you posted the other day, LOL

Comparison with previous wars? Did you read what I said? --> I reacted to YOU saying Russia is "incapable" which is ludicrous. Napoleon and Hitler thought the same.

History will repeat itself because that "gas station" (LOL) is the largest country on Earth with tons of resources, a hardliner regime that never gives up and 6K nukes which means NATO can't do anything other than donating stuff to Ukraine and the situation only escalates because of that help.

If you can't even read properly just don't even reply, it's a waste of time.



Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Feb 15 2023 11:52am)
He's a nutjob mate, don't kid yourself. Most prejudiced poster on this sub-forum. Projects the counter of his argument onto others and then seek to tear it down; Perfect example doesn't even read that what I posted agree's with his position.

At the bold: Isin't it a stretch to think NATO would go into Ukraine? That is exactly the scenario we all hope to avoid, an open conflict of major powers. Hence all these proxy narratives.
From a humanist perspective people want Ukraine to succeed. But if you consider it from a realpolitik perspective, the US and NATO are already winning by preventing Russia from winning.

I also think that this idea of avoiding escalation by Russia is a self-imposed idea. I know you said that in retaliation Russia could launch a massive airstrike on Kiev.
Is that really in Russia's favour? What does Putin stand to gain from leveling Kiev?
He would basically loose any sense of legitimacy from his own support; In theory of course, because we know that Russian's will follow Vlad all the way to water edge, and probably even drown in their apathetic compliance.

So what is the potential retaliation for sending more advanced equipment to Ukraine? A nuclear strike? What does Putin stand to gain from using even a tactical nuke?

I also don't want to see a broader conflict. I do think that if we allow larger, aggressor states to break the current order. As in, if we appease Russia's aggression.
Then a broader conflict is exactly what we will get in time.


You're the mad hatter here, lol.

Russia is producing more ammo than Ukraine + massive NATO support combined, Western reports that Russia is running out of ammo have proven to be complete trash propaganda, Russia having the upper hand in ammo production now admitted by Stoltenberg. The truth always comes out buddy

BTW keep posting shit about NATO testing grounds and ask yourself who's PARD's mad hatter :lol:
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Feb 15 2023 05:46am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Feb 15 2023 10:52am)
He's a nutjob mate, don't kid yourself. Most prejudiced poster on this sub-forum. Projects the counter of his argument onto others and then seek to tear it down; Perfect example doesn't even read that what I posted agree's with his position.

At the bold: Isin't it a stretch to think NATO would go into Ukraine? That is exactly the scenario we all hope to avoid, an open conflict of major powers. Hence all these proxy narratives.
From a humanist perspective people want Ukraine to succeed. But if you consider it from a realpolitik perspective, the US and NATO are already winning by preventing Russia from winning.

I also think that this idea of avoiding escalation by Russia is a self-imposed idea. I know you said that in retaliation Russia could launch a massive airstrike on Kiev.
Is that really in Russia's favour? What does Putin stand to gain from leveling Kiev?
He would basically loose any sense of legitimacy from his own support; In theory of course, because we know that Russian's will follow Vlad all the way to water edge, and probably even drown in their apathetic compliance.

So what is the potential retaliation for sending more advanced equipment to Ukraine? A nuclear strike? What does Putin stand to gain from using even a tactical nuke?

I also don't want to see a broader conflict. I do think that if we allow larger, aggressor states to break the current order. As in, if we appease Russia's aggression.
Then a broader conflict is exactly what we will get in time.


If someone is personally attacking you, just ignore/block/report them. if they are attacking your position read more, and if you stand by your position accept some people are entitled to have a different opinion (grins) even if one side is wrong.

In terms of narrative, there is a difference between the words "narrative" and "fact". Ukraine only has so many men. if jets, tanks, tech and nato trained soldiers are being pumped into ukraine what do you mean about a proxy narrative, it IS a fact that this is a proxy war. If Ukraine runs out of men then the natural thing (from a realpolitik/totalwar position) would be for Nato to get involved (they are already involved ok).

Also, the natural conclusion (from one side, at this time) to a realpolitik debate would be that yes, the US is "winning" (of this there is no doubt) but that one side of such a debate would be of the view that the US is the principal architect of this war. I refer you to the Holberg debate of 2022? where this was the topic of debate.

From a humanist perspective one would want Russia to win, noting the alternative is most likely a prolonged war, involving superpowers, where small countries (and populations) won't matter, with massive loss of life/hardship.

A russian strike on kiev with the intention of removing the political establishment (with massive collateral damage) - from the russian perspective they would seek to remove ukrainian leadership. from a western standpoint it would probably galvanize the hawks. i would expect something like that to happen during 2023. if not the capital then the entire country (i.e. more of the same). i am not condoning russia here I am outlining how russia may respond to jets and long range missles (in the event they are making a material impact on ukraine's ability to counter attack). if ukraine can only defend russia will just keep doing what they are doing (in my opinion). You will note that nowhere do I suggest Russia attacking a Nato country (this is a narrative being shipped around, but I do not accept russian imperialism aspersions as fact).

What is your view on tanks, jets, training, tech and long range capabilities being bestowed on ukraine? do you acknowledge that these moves are potential precursor's to a broader conflict noting they are an escalation?

Quote (Meanwhile @ Feb 15 2023 11:08am)
Berlusconi loooooooool

https://i.imgflip.com/287obl.jpg


ye he is totally corrupt. i completely agree with this point. Italian politic's is long term fubar for a variety of reasons (previously mentioned, most election tamperings of any country in the world, by other countries, ever) just remember the world is not black and white and good guys have done bad things and bad guys sometimes have valid points. The west is united in its public statements. this does not make logical sense unless you accept the fact that they refuse to have dissent in their "party". On the one hand the EU is united and is acting like a unified block, but on the other hand there is alot of tension, when presidents and prime ministers are being ostracized for having a dissenting voice. There should always be room for a dissenting voice because if you remove these voices you are removing checks and balances.

This post was edited by ferdia on Feb 15 2023 06:01am
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Feb 15 2023 06:16am
Quote (Djunior @ Feb 15 2023 11:31am)
MacGregor is providing numbers that are based on research, for example by people closely checking obituaries in Russia and Ukraine, and reports of Ukrainian women complaining that they haven't heard from their men / spouses for a long time while they always kept in touch. Apparently Western MSM isn't even allowed to report on Ukrainian military losses because only Ukrainian civilian casualties are reported on a daily bases. But you believe the huge numbers of Russian casualties reported by Ukrainian sources (Kyiv Independent) that you posted the other day, LOL

Comparison with previous wars? Did you read what I said? --> I reacted to YOU saying Russia is "incapable" which is ludicrous. Napoleon and Hitler thought the same.

History will repeat itself because that "gas station" (LOL) is the largest country on Earth with tons of resources, a hardliner regime that never gives up and 6K nukes which means NATO can't do anything other than donating stuff to Ukraine and the situation only escalates because of that help.

If you can't even read properly just don't even reply, it's a waste of time.





You're the mad hatter here, lol.

Russia is producing more ammo than Ukraine + massive NATO support combined, Western reports that Russia is running out of ammo have proven to be complete trash propaganda, Russia having the upper hand in ammo production now admitted by Stoltenberg. The truth always comes out buddy

BTW keep posting shit about NATO testing grounds and ask yourself who's PARD's mad hatter :lol:


Firstly you are moving the goalposts from Russia being low on precision missiles, to Russia has the upper hand in ammo production.
Secondly you are attacking me as if I espouse what the MSM was saying; Check again the previous page where I showed how you misrepresent peoples positions.

Do you actually believe that if Russia had an infinite amount precision missiles, they would recruiting prisoners and sending human wave attacks against Ukrainian lines?
The Russian army is built for one mode. Attritional artillery battles. We have seen how their goal a swift and sweeping invasion failed, and now they have reverted to type.
It is reasonable to assume they have sufficient supply chains of artillery ammunition, because that is what the Russian army does; Combine that with Ukraine's use of soviet equipment early in the war. Ammunition for which is not manufactured in the West. It is inevitable they will struggle with maintaining supply for those platforms.
Your angle about Russia having more ammunition being a "gotcha' moment" is a total misnomer.

Furthermore NATO is getting masses of intelligence on weaponry and tactics of a near pear adversary. If you don't like that fact, it does not make it any less true.
It is amusing how you use realpolitik to justify Russia's invasion, at the expense of Ukrainians; But when faced with the reality, of NATO getting information at Russia's expense, you become a humanist and deride the fact.

Don't throw stones in glass houses junior. You would do well to hide your hypocrisy more carefully.

Quote (ferdia @ Feb 15 2023 11:46am)
If someone is personally attacking you, just ignore them. if they are attacking your position read more, and if you stand by your position accept some people are entitled to have a different opinion (grins) even if one side is wrong.

In terms of narrative, there is a difference between the words "narrative" and "fact". Ukraine only has so many men. if jets, tanks, tech and nato trained soldiers are being pumped into ukraine what do you mean about a proxy narrative, it IS a fact that this is a proxy war. If Ukraine runs out of men then the natural thing (from a realpolitik/totalwar position) would be for Nato to get involved (they are already involved ok).

Also, the natural conclusion (from one side, at this time) to a realpolitik debate would be that yes, the US is "winning" (of this there is no doubt) but that one side of such a debate would be of the view that the US is the principal architect of this war. I refer you to the Holberg debate of 2022? where this was the topic of debate.

From a humanist perspective one would want Russia to win, noting the alternative is most likely a prolonged war, involving superpowers, where small countries (and populations) won't matter, with massive loss of life/hardship.

A russian strike on kiev with the intention of removing the political establishment (with massive collateral damage) - from the russian perspective they would seek to remove ukrainian leadership. from a western standpoint it would probably galvanize the hawks. i would expect something like that to happen during 2023. if not the capital then the entire country (i.e. more of the same). i am not condoning russia here I am outlining how russia may respond to jets and long range missles (in the event they are making a material impact on ukraine's ability to counter attack). if ukraine can only defend russia will just keep doing what they are doing (in my opinion).

What is your view on tanks, jets, training, tech and long range capabilities being bestowed on ukraine? do you acknowledge that these moves are potential precursor's to a broader conflict noting they are an escalation?


Its fine advice, not that I asked for it but I am more than happy to call out hypocrisy and trash arguments when they arise.

Replying to the bold. Is your position that appeasing Russian aggression, will lead to a lower chance of a broadening conflict? Or further separate conflicts in the future?
By appeasing Russian aggression I am referring to vectors such as the non-reaction to Russia annexation of Crimea, the muted reaction to Russian support for separatist's in Eastern Ukraine.
Or more recently and definitively, not supporting Ukraine to the fullest potential now; In an effort to deter more aggression from Russia in the future.

An interesting side note I heard yesterday was that, if the West and particularly the US, is seen not to resist/deter Russian aggression in Ukraine; What signal does that send to China over the potential attack on Taiwan?

"What is your view on tanks, jets, training, tech and long range capabilities being bestowed on ukraine? do you acknowledge that these moves are potential precursor's to a broader conflict noting they are an escalation?

I do not acknowledge that position. In fact I would argue that it is the most effective way to deter a broadening of the escalation. The cost of aggression should be too high for Russia to continue on this path.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Feb 15 2023 06:18am
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Feb 15 2023 06:17am
Quote (Djunior @ 15 Feb 2023 12:31)
MacGregor is providing numbers that are based on research, for example by people closely checking obituaries in Russia and Ukraine, and reports of Ukrainian women complaining that they haven't heard from their men / spouses for a long time while they always kept in touch. Apparently Western MSM isn't even allowed to report on Ukrainian military losses because only Ukrainian civilian casualties are reported on a daily bases. But you believe the huge numbers of Russian casualties reported by Ukrainian sources (Kyiv Independent) that you posted the other day, LOL

Comparison with previous wars? Did you read what I said? --> I reacted to YOU saying Russia is "incapable" which is ludicrous. Napoleon and Hitler thought the same.

History will repeat itself because that "gas station" (LOL) is the largest country on Earth with tons of resources, a hardliner regime that never gives up and 6K nukes which means NATO can't do anything other than donating stuff to Ukraine and the situation only escalates because of that help.

If you can't even read properly just don't even reply, it's a waste of time.


MacGregor is BAD joke, proofs:

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/555916-trump-appointee-repeatedly-spread-conspiracy-that-biden-admin-is-bringing-in/
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/antisemitism-accusations-against-dr-douglas-macgregor-are-deeply-upsetting-639119
https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/douglas-macgregor-tucker-carlsons-foreign-policy-muse-coup-curious-conspiracy-theorist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Macgregor

Macgregor has confidently predicted that the conflict will end with Russia "annihilating" Ukrainian forces and winning the war. One such interview, with Carlson, was aired on Russia's state-controlled TV.
Macgregor also said that Russian forces were "too gentle" in the early stages of the Ukraine invasion, and referred to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky as a "puppet." Those comments prompted Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney to describe Macgregor as part of the "Putin wing of the GOP."

/e I will give you a tip: controversial people are not necessarily reliable... Often these are desperate to get more visibility and will say the most GROSS and delirious things in order to get it.



And;

- Russia's shellings are well know for being inaccurate. So yep, you can circle-jerk on this "capable" for a while, it will not change their precision ability nor giving you a point.

- French campaign was done 210 years ago, before even the use of electricity, motor vehicles, and it was an invasion (meaning russians were defenders) in winter: It is... delirious... to involve this in this debate on a military point.

=> The Serfdom history of Russia was a much more interesting suject, reflecting (partially) the russian people behavior. (beyond the gulag ofc) <=





-----------------------------------


Russian journalist Maria Ponomarenko jailed for highlighting Mariupol killings

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64647267

The court in Barnaul in Siberia found her guilty of spreading "fake news", under laws introduced aimed at stifling dissent about the invasion of Ukraine.
She was also barred from activities as a journalist for five years.
Hundreds of civilians died when the Mariupol theatre was bombed last March.


Residents had written the Russian word for "children" outside the theatre in an attempt to stop Russian airstrikes


This post was edited by Meanwhile on Feb 15 2023 06:31am
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Feb 15 2023 06:23am
Yawn.



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Feb 15 2023 06:28am
Quote (swmtrunks @ 15 Feb 2023 13:23)


From the same channel :

- Morning briefing of the Ministry of Defense of Russia (February 14, 2023) :drool:
- Berlusconi - I very, very negatively assess the behavior of this gentleman (Zelensky)
- SERGEY LAVROV - The West is trying to impose its "rules" on the world
- The flag of Victory is flying over the waters of the Dnieper again ....

etc...

Yawn. Comrade, time to go fight the nazis :lol:

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Feb 15 2023 06:33am
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Feb 15 2023 06:34am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Feb 15 2023 12:16pm)
Its fine advice, not that I asked for it but I am more than happy to call out hypocrisy and trash arguments when they arise.

Replying to the bold. Is your position that appeasing Russian aggression, will lead to a lower chance of a broadening conflict? Or further separate conflicts in the future?
By appeasing Russian aggression I am referring to vectors such as the non-reaction to Russia annexation of Crimea, the muted reaction to Russian support for separatist's in Eastern Ukraine.
Or more recently and definitively, not supporting Ukraine to the fullest potential now; In an effort to deter more aggression from Russia in the future.

An interesting side note I heard yesterday was that, if the West and particularly the US, is seen not to resist/deter Russian aggression in Ukraine; What signal does that send to China over the potential attack on Taiwan?

"What is your view on tanks, jets, training, tech and long range capabilities being bestowed on ukraine? do you acknowledge that these moves are potential precursor's to a broader conflict noting they are an escalation?

I do not acknowledge that position. In fact I would argue that it is the most effective way to deter a broadening of the escalation. The cost of aggression should be too high for Russia to continue on this path.


i see Rssian activity prior to 2014 as appeasement to the US. In this regard appeasement from a perceived weakened position could be construed as erroneous on the part of Russia. It should be accepted that the US is the dominant superpower on this planet today and therefore its quite difficult to see a US reversal (hey lets back down) as appeasement in the face of a superior entity (Russia) does not exist, as Russia is not superior (capabilities). So yes 100% my position is that backing away from Ukraine and not perpetuating the war would remove the risk of a global world war. I thought i was very clear on this throughout this topic, but if i was not, yes, that is my position. Would this mean that Ukraine is "betrayed" yes. But I see that as inevitable. to be clear i see either Russia winning the war or WW3, which is pretty much the rationale for my position. Understand my position on how this conflict was created before condemning my position, thanks.

Regarding Taiwan, China is not in a hurry, as previously stated they are 1/2 way through their 100 year plan, all is going well, and their military is due to be "ready" on the global stage in about 20-30 years time (this means they expect to have superior troops tech and capabilities then the US by that point). They are playing the long game and winning. From a US perspective they will probably try to create a reason (as they did in Ukraine) to fight with China sooner, say, in the next 5-10 years, before China is ready, because the US acknowledges that China is now defacto their geopolitical superpower enemy (on the basis that they are a rising superpower and a challenge to US supremacy).

you do not acknowledge that improving Ukrainian military ability should be construed as an escalation. in this regard we are on opposite ends on this point. Do you acknowledge the Russian red line re: long range weapons and the US's (up to a point) agreement with this red line? this is freely available to google btw.

This post was edited by ferdia on Feb 15 2023 06:40am
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