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Feb 9 2023 08:11am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Feb 9 2023 02:05pm)

Because you don't understand it doesn't means it's not logical.
Actually it is extremely logical and Russia remains the #1 suspect.


It would be funny if it wasn't sad.
Have you ever checked you IQ? Serious question, I'm genuinely curious
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Feb 9 2023 08:32am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Feb 9 2023 01:30pm)
Sounds like the best you can do is to insult people.

Absolutely he said that the pipeline would be shut down the valves because he had german support. It was precisely the right moment for Russia to explode it because contractually, Gazprom no longer has to pay Germany damages for breaches of deliveries of contracted gas (and paid), since there is a case of "force majeure".

The sabotage is also very divisive and Russia is the lonely one who gets advantage from it.


OK lets try to resolve this. if anyone wants to chip in go ahead.

1. Nord Stream 2 is a gas pipeline from Russia to Germany. The US was opposed to it from Day 1 for a variety of reasons.

This is a fact, not an opinion.

2. The US president suggested they would get rid of it if Russia invaded Ukraine.

This is a fact, not an opinion.

3. Nord Stream 2 was blown up by parties unknown. The west is in a de-facto war with Russia, yet those countries that carried out the investigation are refusing to produce their findings. This makes no logical sense unless Russia (the enemy) was not the party that committed the act.

4. The US can also export energy, and dont like Russia, and would like to see Russia humbled and weak and said that they would get rid of it. Therefore they DO benefit from Nord Stream 2 (and the Ukrainian conflict).

therefore, your logic, which suggests that Russia is the only beneficiary of Nord Stream 2 being blown up, is not logical.

If you do not agree with the above, please try to verbalize your position using a logical argument (you will note that I have been quite fair here, I have worded the above so as to agree that Russia does somewhat benefit from this in line with your argument, but it is simply erroneous not to suggest that the US also benefits from this).

This post was edited by ferdia on Feb 9 2023 08:37am
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Feb 9 2023 08:51am
Quote (ferdia @ 9 Feb 2023 14:32)
OK lets try to resolve this. if anyone wants to chip in go ahead.

1. Nord Stream 2 is a gas pipeline from Russia to Germany. The US was opposed to it from Day 1 for a variety of reasons.

This is a fact, not an opinion.

2. The US president suggested they would get rid of it if Russia invaded Ukraine.

This is a fact, not an opinion.

3. Nord Stream 2 was blown up by parties unknown. The west is in a de-facto war with Russia, yet those countries that carried out the investigation are refusing to produce their findings. This makes no logical sense unless Russia was not the party that committed the act.

4. The US can also export energy, and dont like Russia, and said that thhttps://forums.d2jsp.org/images/e/happy.pngey would get rid of it. Therefore they DO benefit from Nord Stream 2 (and the Ukrainian conflict).

therefore, your logic, which suggests that Russia is the only beneficiary of Nord Stream 2 being blown up, is not logical.


I am very sorry but you can't "resolve" it

- US had deep ties with Germany and EU: why blowing up the pipe while it was possible to simply shut down the valves ?
- Gazprom no longer had to pay Germany damages for breaches of deliveries of contracted gas (and paid), since there is a case of "force majeure". You completely ignore this.
- The sabotage is also very divisive and this is a very good argument : Russia is the lonely one who gets advantage from blowing it.

This said it could have been a decision, a message, decided by all allies, that we don't know... No proofs of any kind for anyone here, don't forget it.

Tip: Farts who claim that covid vaccine kills are the same being sure it was US. Maybe NOT a good idea to mix with these people ? ;)
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Feb 9 2023 08:58am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Feb 9 2023 02:51pm)
I am very sorry but you can't "resolve" it

- US had deep ties with Germany and EU: <- yes, which is why they didnt like the pipeline. why blowing up the pipe while it was possible to simply shut down the valves ? <- because they dont want the pipeline to exist.
- Gazprom no longer had to pay Germany damages for breaches of deliveries of contracted gas (and paid), since there is a case of "force majeure". You completely ignore this. <- russia could just as easily have said we are at war with you we are not paying you squat, you already have us sanctioned why would we pay you a penny.
- The sabotage is also very divisive and this is a very good argument : Russia is the lonely one who gets advantage from blowing it. <- I have already outlined how the US also benefits.

This said it could have been a decision, a message, decided by all allies, that we don't know... No proofs of any kind for anyone here, don't forget it. <- i see this as a compromise from you, and will accept it at face value.

Tip: Farts who claim that covid vaccine kills are the same being sure it was US. Maybe NOT a good idea to mix with these people ? ;) <- this is not relevant so i wont give a view!


cheers. resolved, moving on.

ps

sorry could not help myself (while accepting some of this may be untrue i will bold the relevant sections):

The destruction of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline between Russia and Germany was a terror attack carried out by the US Navy, in a mission planned before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, according to a report by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Seymour Hersh published Wednesday. On September 26, a series of explosions destroyed the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which shipped natural gas from Russia to Germany. While no one has publicly admitted responsibility, US officials have expressed satisfaction at the pipeline’s destruction. Seymour Hersh is one of the world’s leading investigative journalists, who exposed the My Lai massacre during the Vietnam War. He also contributed to revealing the Watergate scandal and prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib. While Hersh, as usual, does not report his sources, and his accusations cannot be independently verified, his reporting has been confirmed again and again in the past.

Hersh alleges that:

Last June, the Navy divers, operating under the cover of a widely publicized mid-summer NATO exercise known as BALTOPS 22, planted the remotely triggered explosives that, three months later, destroyed three of the four Nord Stream pipelines, according to a source with direct knowledge of the operational planning.

The terrorist attack on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines destroyed civilian infrastructure valued at over $20 billion. It resulted in the single largest spill of methane gas in human history, releasing the equivalent of 14.6 million tons of CO2, with a major climate impact. The attack contributed to a spike in energy prices through Europe and the entire world.

In congressional testimony in January, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland said, “I think the administration is very gratified to know that Nord Stream 2 is now, as you like to say, a hunk of metal at the bottom of the sea.” These statements strongly suggested that the US and its allies viewed the attack favorably.They also made it appear likely that the attack had been directed by Washington through an intermediary, such as the Ukrainian special forces.

According to Hersh, however, the attack was not only planned by the United States, but actively conducted by the US Navy. If true, what occurred was a staggeringly reckless attack on Germany, a NATO ally of the US. The United States fought against Germany in two world wars, in which hundreds of thousands of American soldiers were killed. In 1917, the United States nominally entered World War I in response to the German policy of indiscriminately sinking American civilian ships using submarines.

In his report, Hersh explained the economic significance of the Nord Stream pipelines:

From its earliest days, Nord Stream 1 was seen by Washington and its anti-Russian NATO partners as a threat to western dominance…

The direct route, which bypassed any need to transit Ukraine, had been a boon for the German economy, which enjoyed an abundance of cheap Russian natural gas—enough to run its factories and heat its homes while enabling German distributors to sell excess gas, at a profit, throughout Western Europe…

America’s political fears were real: [Russian President] Putin would now have an additional and much-needed major source of income, and Germany and the rest of Western Europe would become addicted to low-cost natural gas supplied by Russia—while diminishing European reliance on America…

As long as Europe remained dependent on the pipelines for cheap natural gas, Washington was afraid that countries like Germany would be reluctant to supply Ukraine with the money and weapons it needed to defeat Russia.

Hersh does not note that following the shutoff of European natural gas imports from Russia, the US massively increased its natural gas exports to Europe, leading to record profits for US energy companies.

As one European official told Politico, “The fact is, if you look at it soberly, the country that is most profiting from this war is the US because they are selling more gas and at higher prices, and because they are selling more weapons.”

all of the above to my mind is a logical argument that Russia was not the sole beneficiary (if it even was) of the blowing up of nord stream 2.

This post was edited by ferdia on Feb 9 2023 09:11am
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Feb 9 2023 09:51am
This trigger lol




Quote (ferdia @ 9 Feb 2023 14:58)
cheers. resolved, moving on.

ps

sorry could not help myself (while accepting some of this may be untrue i will bold the relevant sections):

The destruction of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline between Russia and Germany was a terror attack carried out by the US Navy, in a mission planned before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, according to a report by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Seymour Hersh published Wednesday. On September 26, a series of explosions destroyed the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which shipped natural gas from Russia to Germany. While no one has publicly admitted responsibility, US officials have expressed satisfaction at the pipeline’s destruction. Seymour Hersh is one of the world’s leading investigative journalists, who exposed the My Lai massacre during the Vietnam War. He also contributed to revealing the Watergate scandal and prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib. While Hersh, as usual, does not report his sources, and his accusations cannot be independently verified, his reporting has been confirmed again and again in the past.

Hersh alleges that:

Last June, the Navy divers, operating under the cover of a widely publicized mid-summer NATO exercise known as BALTOPS 22, planted the remotely triggered explosives that, three months later, destroyed three of the four Nord Stream pipelines, according to a source with direct knowledge of the operational planning.

The terrorist attack on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines destroyed civilian infrastructure valued at over $20 billion. It resulted in the single largest spill of methane gas in human history, releasing the equivalent of 14.6 million tons of CO2, with a major climate impact. The attack contributed to a spike in energy prices through Europe and the entire world.

In congressional testimony in January, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland said, “I think the administration is very gratified to know that Nord Stream 2 is now, as you like to say, a hunk of metal at the bottom of the sea.” These statements strongly suggested that the US and its allies viewed the attack favorably.They also made it appear likely that the attack had been directed by Washington through an intermediary, such as the Ukrainian special forces.

According to Hersh, however, the attack was not only planned by the United States, but actively conducted by the US Navy. If true, what occurred was a staggeringly reckless attack on Germany, a NATO ally of the US. The United States fought against Germany in two world wars, in which hundreds of thousands of American soldiers were killed. In 1917, the United States nominally entered World War I in response to the German policy of indiscriminately sinking American civilian ships using submarines.

In his report, Hersh explained the economic significance of the Nord Stream pipelines:

From its earliest days, Nord Stream 1 was seen by Washington and its anti-Russian NATO partners as a threat to western dominance…

The direct route, which bypassed any need to transit Ukraine, had been a boon for the German economy, which enjoyed an abundance of cheap Russian natural gas—enough to run its factories and heat its homes while enabling German distributors to sell excess gas, at a profit, throughout Western Europe…

America’s political fears were real: [Russian President] Putin would now have an additional and much-needed major source of income, and Germany and the rest of Western Europe would become addicted to low-cost natural gas supplied by Russia—while diminishing European reliance on America…

As long as Europe remained dependent on the pipelines for cheap natural gas, Washington was afraid that countries like Germany would be reluctant to supply Ukraine with the money and weapons it needed to defeat Russia.

Hersh does not note that following the shutoff of European natural gas imports from Russia, the US massively increased its natural gas exports to Europe, leading to record profits for US energy companies.

As one European official told Politico, “The fact is, if you look at it soberly, the country that is most profiting from this war is the US because they are selling more gas and at higher prices, and because they are selling more weapons.”

all of the above to my mind is a logical argument that Russia was not the sole beneficiary (if it even was) of the blowing up of nord stream 2.


Hersh ? Isn't this guy who destroyed his credibility with disinformation which spread on social networks by conspiratorial propaganda groups on Syria, in particular the "myth of the little Syrian girl saved several times", although this disinformation has long been refuted by AFP and several other major media ?

You are a prey for them.

Thanks, but you should seriously take care to:
- Not wasting your energy with this this story
- Don't be fooled, always check the backgrounds on wikipedia
Typically pullizer or nobel prices guys going wild when reaching 80+ years old, nothing new.



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Feb 9 2023 11:14am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Feb 9 2023 03:51pm)


That person being interviewed has for the last year and more advocated for the liberation of Crimea. There are over a dozen video's on youtube, all of which i have watched, where he provides his view of the war. In the video you provided it is his position that Ukraine has a potential of 2.7Million men and that they can win even against the numbers Russia has (which he disputes). The caveat, or condition, that he has for a ukraine win, is that the west provides ukraine with what is needed to win. He also states that the west IS NOT AND HAS NOT provided Ukraine with the tools needed to win, therefore his entire argument is a fallacy.

do you understand what i just said? he is literally saying the west arguement to ukraine is that they do not think ukraine will win and therefore will not give ukraine the tools to enable them to win. Another way of framing that is that the West will not give ukraine the tools that would enable them to frighten russia into escalating the war further. When the west repeatedly delays shipment of arms - there is NO reason for this if they want a ukraine victory, it means they DO NOT have ukraine interests at heart and are being disingenuous with ukraine.

"yes we will help you but not today or tomorow, it will be a few months". they have had all of winter to move (to give ukraine tanks, planes, long range weapons), they have not moved, it really looks like they have tepidly abandoned ukraine. from a western perspective, based on a narrative of russian imperialism it beggers belief.

i have no problem switching to a pro ukrainian position to argue this point. Ukraine needs long range weapons, they need air power and they need tactical advantages to offset the numbers being thrown at them. Poland seems to want to give them planes, not sure where that is at the moment but if they are getting planes they literally need them, today.

This post was edited by ferdia on Feb 9 2023 11:23am
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Feb 9 2023 11:30am
Quote (Melatonina @ Feb 9 2023 09:39am)
Propaganda has little if not zero effects on me :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyUMiW8k5F8



Lmao nothing has been debunked from these dork sites.

It basically says we are right and they are wrong but they can't put facts on their words :D Unconvenient for them the evidence is on video.

Also I'd trust anyday the people (civilian victims) living there rather than any ukrainian military leader (heil).

Just to finish you off saucisson6000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StopFake

"StopFake website is a project of Ukrainian media NGO Media Reforms Center."

Hypocrisy/10

Let me know when you learned "independant sources"


I've watched that documentary by Anne-Laure Bonnel, I believe it was just titled "Donbas". Also read the accusations against Anne-Laure as a Russian propagandist but nothing I've seen in that regard was convincing.

Would recommend anyone interested in the conflict to at least check it out.
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Feb 9 2023 11:39am
Quote (ferdia @ 9 Feb 2023 17:14)
That person being interviewed has for the last year and more advocated for the liberation of Crimea. There are over a dozen video's on youtube, all of which i have watched, where he provides his view of the war. In the video you provided it is his position that Ukraine has a potential of 2.7Million men and that they can win even against the numbers Russia has (which he disputes). The caveat, or condition, that he has for a ukraine win, is that the west provides ukraine with what is needed to win. He also states that the west IS NOT AND HAS NOT provided Ukraine with the tools needed to win, therefore his entire argument is a fallacy.

do you understand what i just said? he is literally saying the west arguement to ukraine is that they do not think ukraine will win and therefore will not give ukraine the tools to enable them to win. Another way of framing that is that the West will not give ukraine the tools that would enable them to frighten russia into escalating the war further. When the west repeatedly delays shipment of arms - there is NO reason for this if they want a ukraine victory, it means they DO NOT have ukraine interests at heart and are being disingenuous with ukraine.

"yes we will help you but not today or tomorow, it will be a few months". they have had all of winter to move (to give ukraine tanks, planes, long range weapons), they have not moved, it really looks like they have tepidly abandoned ukraine. from a western perspective, based on a narrative of russian imperialism it beggers belief.

i have no problem switching to a pro ukrainian position to argue this point. Ukraine needs long range weapons, they need air power and they need tactical advantages to offset the numbers being thrown at them. Poland seems to want to give them planes, not sure where that is at the moment but if they are getting planes they literally need them, today.


Nah, you are overreacting over this post:

I didnt even watch the video, only the main idea that"Taking Crimea is the path to definitive victory" is interesting.
It is interesting because it would destroy all the narrative that "Crimea will never be given back to Ukraine".
It would blow away the "sacred status" Russia is building around it and also the whole nuclear threats show.

So if Ukraine takes it Putin would very probably be kicked out by his own gang.

This is warlords law:

1/ Make the war else you are weak and your remaining days are counted.
2/ Till you are at war, even in an uncomfortable position, your seat is still safe (relatively).
3/ If you lose the war or any major battle that you assumed to be impossible to lose then you are dead (almost).

Now i have no idea how Russia would really react over Crimea. Maybe negotiating when half of it is taken and giving it a special status ? Whatever.

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Feb 9 2023 11:40am
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Feb 9 2023 12:19pm
im sorry, words fail me.

as an impartial arbiter recommend you edit your post and i will pretend i never saw that.

This post was edited by ferdia on Feb 9 2023 12:25pm
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Feb 9 2023 12:36pm
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Feb 9 2023 06:30pm)
I've watched that documentary by Anne-Laure Bonnel, I believe it was just titled "Donbas". Also read the accusations against Anne-Laure as a Russian propagandist but nothing I've seen in that regard was convincing.

Would recommend anyone interested in the conflict to at least check it out.


Inside the documentary is the obvious and undubitable proofs every beta in here is dodging, as it precisely contradicts the msm narrative (just like the pfizer degen admitting doing research on gain of functions)

You won't have any answer from them, they simply don't know honesty.

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