d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev1215521562157215821595001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 28,878
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 10,712.00
Feb 6 2023 11:25am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Feb 6 2023 11:41am)
"was just a trick to get them to pull the lions share while everyone else (including your country) sends peanuts."

Do the research and you'll see the UK is the second behind the US for military aid to Ukraine; For being in an abysmal state economically, your words. The UK is arguably punching above its weight? Or is Germany not meeting its expectations?
It could be both. It can't be neither.
The UK also has its own standalone nuclear deterrent and doesn't rely only on NATO sharing. Probably a factor as why the UK didn't dither in its support for Ukraine; A standalone deterrent is something only the UK and France can really count on. Germany ought to have a larger conventional deterrent for that reason, but they simply don't.
Scholz's new defence minister came out and said it will take us a month to do an inventory of Leopard 2's! That is the manifestation of being asleep at the wheel. Merkle used to style herself as the leader of the free world, too bad that didn't include organizing someone to inventory the available tanks!

Germany has the largest population and largest economy of any European country. Is it a stretch to assume they should contribute to European defence?


"This notion that if Germany would have spent more on the military something would be different is bullshit"

Not something I have stated. Again classic, straw manning. Germany like alot of EU countries have underinvested in defence; This idea of focusing on your economy while a war is raging on the EU continent is laughable. There is a real and literal threat. Its time the EU and the UK were able to protect European values/allies without relying on the Americans.
As for "focusing on their economy"
"In 2021, Russia accounted for 55% of Germany's gas imports"
Jesus christ man.


The countries dedicating the most, have the most vested interest in wanting Russia to lose. Is it a surprise that the US, UK and Poland lead in that category? The great trick of this war is tricking Europe into thinking that Ukraine's proxy war is in the interest of the continent. Some countries have openly called this out but those voices are drowned out by the pro-war cabal that basically calls any-non war faction pro-Russian. It's similar to the racism, sexism or whatever ism invocation in the west at this point when you can't muster a sound logical argument.

What evidence have you found that giving Ukraine more weapons is a good for the continent or Europe in general or do you believe in nonsense that if we don't they'll end up western Europe?

Ukraine is to Russia as Scotland is to England. Complex past, but for the most part the people lived in peace. I've been to Ukraine when it was under Russia's sphere and there wasn't any resentment or hate or whatever. Sure maybe in some very homogenous, ultra-national circles but most of the people coexist and lived their lives peacefully. It's largely the same in many ex-soviet states. Sure there is Russian influence, and some of the time it's unwanted but ask the normal person and 99/100 will accept that status quo versus having a massive war with their homes destroyed and their fathers and sons sent off to die. We found the few ultra-nationalists and put them in power in a coup that started the civil war and steered that country ever since to reject any reconciliatory tone with their much larger and stronger neighbor, putting them on a very clear war path. Germany for a very long time tried to be the adult in the room, understanding that Europe-Russia relationship is very important and mostly symbiotic economically but ultimately they are being pulled into this war by outside forces. IMO they should have diversified their resource needs but them being against the war for a long time is noble, so is their refugee help.

I guess you can wear your badge of honor for sending weapons and war to Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya and now Ukraine while humanitarians will objectively hold Germans in much higher regard in helping those poor people that end up fleeing the destruction.
Member
Posts: 17,567
Joined: Mar 5 2016
Gold: 27.45
Warn: 40%
Feb 6 2023 11:35am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Feb 6 2023 06:25pm)
The countries dedicating the most, have the most vested interest in wanting Russia to lose. Is it a surprise that the US, UK and Poland lead in that category? The great trick of this war is tricking Europe into thinking that Ukraine's proxy war is in the interest of the continent. Some countries have openly called this out but those voices are drowned out by the pro-war cabal that basically calls any-non war faction pro-Russian. It's similar to the racism, sexism or whatever ism invocation in the west at this point when you can't muster a sound logical argument.

What evidence have you found that giving Ukraine more weapons is a good for the continent or Europe in general or do you believe in nonsense that if we don't they'll end up western Europe?

Ukraine is to Russia as Scotland is to England. Complex past, but for the most part the people lived in peace. I've been to Ukraine when it was under Russia's sphere and there wasn't any resentment or hate or whatever. Sure maybe in some very homogenous, ultra-national circles but most of the people coexist and lived their lives peacefully. It's largely the same in many ex-soviet states. Sure there is Russian influence, and some of the time it's unwanted but ask the normal person and 99/100 will accept that status quo versus having a massive war with their homes destroyed and their fathers and sons sent off to die. We found the few ultra-nationalists and put them in power in a coup that started the civil war and steered that country ever since to reject any reconciliatory tone with their much larger and stronger neighbor, putting them on a very clear war path. Germany for a very long time tried to be the adult in the room, understanding that Europe-Russia relationship is very important and mostly symbiotic economically but ultimately they are being pulled into this war by outside forces. IMO they should have diversified their resource needs but them being against the war for a long time is noble, so is their refugee help.

I guess you can wear your badge of honor for sending weapons and war to Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya and now Ukraine while humanitarians will objectively hold Germans in much higher regard in helping those poor people that end up fleeing the destruction.


Good post but the hypocrite won't get it. The medias are too strong in those empty boxes.
Member
Posts: 45,719
Joined: Aug 25 2008
Gold: 40,130.00
Feb 6 2023 11:42am
Quote (ofthevoid @ 7 Feb 2023 01:25)
The countries dedicating the most, have the most vested interest in wanting Russia to lose. Is it a surprise that the US, UK and Poland lead in that category? The great trick of this war is tricking Europe into thinking that Ukraine's proxy war is in the interest of the continent. Some countries have openly called this out but those voices are drowned out by the pro-war cabal that basically calls any-non war faction pro-Russian. It's similar to the racism, sexism or whatever ism invocation in the west at this point when you can't muster a sound logical argument.

What evidence have you found that giving Ukraine more weapons is a good for the continent or Europe in general or do you believe in nonsense that if we don't they'll end up western Europe?

Ukraine is to Russia as Scotland is to England. Complex past, but for the most part the people lived in peace. I've been to Ukraine when it was under Russia's sphere and there wasn't any resentment or hate or whatever. Sure maybe in some very homogenous, ultra-national circles but most of the people coexist and lived their lives peacefully. It's largely the same in many ex-soviet states. Sure there is Russian influence, and some of the time it's unwanted but ask the normal person and 99/100 will accept that status quo versus having a massive war with their homes destroyed and their fathers and sons sent off to die. We found the few ultra-nationalists and put them in power in a coup that started the civil war and steered that country ever since to reject any reconciliatory tone with their much larger and stronger neighbor, putting them on a very clear war path. Germany for a very long time tried to be the adult in the room, understanding that Europe-Russia relationship is very important and mostly symbiotic economically but ultimately they are being pulled into this war by outside forces. IMO they should have diversified their resource needs but them being against the war for a long time is noble, so is their refugee help.

I guess you can wear your badge of honor for sending weapons and war to Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya and now Ukraine while humanitarians will objectively hold Germans in much higher regard in helping those poor people that end up fleeing the destruction.


Quote (Melatonina @ 7 Feb 2023 01:35)
Good post but the hypocrite won't get it. The medias are too strong in those empty boxes.


Hi Bro I am going to go slightly off topic. The exact same thing that happened in Ukraine, is happening in Taiwan at the moment. If you guys have time to take a slight look at the situation , you might probably understand how the current Ukraine conflict started.
It is 80% similar.
Member
Posts: 15,955
Joined: Jun 27 2010
Gold: 102,354.50
Feb 6 2023 11:49am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Feb 6 2023 05:51pm)
"Cuz"


Solid argument :rofl:

BTW I heard that even Russia is doing better than the UK economically.

RIP
Member
Posts: 20,044
Joined: Apr 13 2016
Gold: 32,397.50
Feb 6 2023 12:11pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Feb 6 2023 05:25pm)
The countries dedicating the most, have the most vested interest in wanting Russia to lose. Is it a surprise that the US, UK and Poland lead in that category? The great trick of this war is tricking Europe into thinking that Ukraine's proxy war is in the interest of the continent. Some countries have openly called this out but those voices are drowned out by the pro-war cabal that basically calls any-non war faction pro-Russian. It's similar to the racism, sexism or whatever ism invocation in the west at this point when you can't muster a sound logical argument.

What evidence have you found that giving Ukraine more weapons is a good for the continent or Europe in general or do you believe in nonsense that if we don't they'll end up western Europe?

Ukraine is to Russia as Scotland is to England. Complex past, but for the most part the people lived in peace. I've been to Ukraine when it was under Russia's sphere and there wasn't any resentment or hate or whatever. Sure maybe in some very homogenous, ultra-national circles but most of the people coexist and lived their lives peacefully. It's largely the same in many ex-soviet states. Sure there is Russian influence, and some of the time it's unwanted but ask the normal person and 99/100 will accept that status quo versus having a massive war with their homes destroyed and their fathers and sons sent off to die. We found the few ultra-nationalists and put them in power in a coup that started the civil war and steered that country ever since to reject any reconciliatory tone with their much larger and stronger neighbor, putting them on a very clear war path. Germany for a very long time tried to be the adult in the room, understanding that Europe-Russia relationship is very important and mostly symbiotic economically but ultimately they are being pulled into this war by outside forces. IMO they should have diversified their resource needs but them being against the war for a long time is noble, so is their refugee help.

I guess you can wear your badge of honor for sending weapons and war to Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya and now Ukraine while humanitarians will objectively hold Germans in much higher regard in helping those poor people that end up fleeing the destruction.


Your jumping from strawman to strawman trying to point score.
The comparison of Ukraine/Russia and Scotland/England is insane dude :rofl:

I refer back to my original point. Nobody wants to hear anyone co splain on Germany's behalf about having to spend on defence.
Detterent is a real and important factor. Germany, and other EU countries have not sufficiently funded a detterent to aggression in Europe.
Member
Posts: 20,044
Joined: Apr 13 2016
Gold: 32,397.50
Feb 6 2023 12:13pm
Quote (Djunior @ Feb 6 2023 05:49pm)
Solid argument :rofl:

BTW I heard that even Russia is doing better than the UK economically.

RIP


That might be true, it also might not be true. Are we trusting Kremlin figures on the Russian economy?

I also heard over a 100 thousand Russians got ground to paste at the behest of a 70year old dictator, RIP ^^

The UK economy will be fine and recover. Those Russian men are not coming back. That's the real embarrassment, that you support it.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Feb 6 2023 12:14pm
Member
Posts: 15,955
Joined: Jun 27 2010
Gold: 102,354.50
Feb 6 2023 12:39pm
This post is a violation of the site rules and appropriate action was taken.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Feb 6 2023 07:13pm)
That might be true, it also might not be true. Are we trusting Kremlin figures on the Russian economy?

I also heard over a 100 thousand Russians got ground to paste at the behest of a 70year old dictator, RIP ^^

The UK economy will be fine and recover. Those Russian men are not coming back. That's the real embarrassment, that you support it.


Let's remind you that I didn't "support" this shit conflict, it should've been avoided entirely.

YOU are one of those brainless drones cheering every escalation (weapons delivery) in the name of humiliating Russia (whatever that means).

Ukraine in being run into the ground, it's people have fled or are dying and you believe this is all worth it, NATO testing ground for weapons and killing Russians (your own words).

You sir, are a piece of shit

Member
Posts: 20,044
Joined: Apr 13 2016
Gold: 32,397.50
Feb 6 2023 12:56pm
Quote (Djunior @ Feb 6 2023 06:39pm)
Let's remind you that I didn't "support" this shit conflict, it should've been avoided entirely.

YOU are one of those brainless drones cheering every escalation (weapons delivery) in the name of humiliating Russia (whatever that means).

Ukraine in being run into the ground, it's people have fled or are dying and you believe this is all worth it, NATO testing ground for weapons and killing Russians (your own words).

You sir, are a piece of shit


You've done nothing but deny Russia's responsibility for a war they started. Your a bootlicker through and through.
Hate on anyone with the substance to call out your false version of events.
I couldn't care less what you think of me :rofl:

It is a testing ground for NATO weapons, that is literally happening. Those other things you attribute to me are false; Whatever makes Putin's leather taste better I suppose.
Member
Posts: 28,878
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 10,712.00
Feb 6 2023 01:15pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Feb 6 2023 01:11pm)
Your jumping from strawman to strawman trying to point score.
The comparison of Ukraine/Russia and Scotland/England is insane dude :rofl:

I refer back to my original point. Nobody wants to hear anyone co splain on Germany's behalf about having to spend on defence.
Detterent is a real and important factor. Germany, and other EU countries have not sufficiently funded a detterent to aggression in Europe.


Point score lol.

I can point to half a dozen of examples of where more weapons and interventions were failures and accomplished very little for us. But yes this time it's different. I'd gladly be wrong for the rest of my life for this war to be over but it's pretty obvious providing more weapons is not a deterrent in any way, in fact quiet the opposite with Russia mobilizing another 300-500k, putting their military industrial complex in overdrive. You really think 6 months from now if they are losing they won't field another 500k? At that point the war has too much sunk cost and the only way for the leadership to survive is to go all in which could mean millions mobilized and overwhelm Ukraine men-wise or just pull the nuke trump card.

Also Germany> UK all day. Now thinking about it, it's incredible how badly you guys would of gotten rolled if the Soviets didn't take bulk of the Nazi pressure on the eastern front or if the US didn't step in and fund your war effort. I think we both agree that they are the premiere power in Europe even after losing 2 world wars. Really hope Germany sticks to its non-war mentality and focuses on bettering Euro lives instead peddling wars like we and the brits have been doing for the better part of the last 2 decades.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Feb 6 2023 01:24pm
Member
Posts: 20,044
Joined: Apr 13 2016
Gold: 32,397.50
Feb 6 2023 01:24pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Feb 6 2023 07:15pm)
Point score lol.

I can point to half a dozen of examples of where more weapons and interventions were failures and accomplished very little for us. But yes this time it's different. I'd gladly be wrong for the rest of my life for this war to be over but it's pretty obvious providing more weapons is not a deterrent in any way, in fact quiet the opposite with Russia mobilizing another 300-500k, putting their military industrial complex in overdrive. You really think 6 months from now if they are losing they won't field another 500k? At that point the war has too much sunk cost and the only way for the leadership to survive is to go all in.

Also Germany> UK all day. Now thinking about it, it's incredible how badly you guys would of gotten rolled if the Soviets didn't take bulk of the Nazi pressure on the eastern front or if the US didn't step in and fund your war effort. I think we both agree that they are premiere power in Europe even after losing 2 world wars.


"Point score lol."
"Also Germany> UK all day."

Case and point.

You really bounced all the way to the the soviets and WW2 because I said Germans shouldn't complain about spending on defense? Well whatever gymnastics works for you man.
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1215521562157215821595001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll