I was just quickly looking for people that seemed involved in a discussion I wasn't following to give them an update from Norlander.

I didn't feel your reply addressed the criticism about Neville Chamberlain, who appeased Hitler, who didn't stop taking what he wanted until someone made him stop. Your position that we should just let Russia run roughshod over Ukraine "to save lives" is peak Neville Chamberlain.

Something not reported in MSM:
Ukrainian army illegally recruits Russian speaking Ukrainians with predjudice then sends them to the fronts as cannon fodder. They also attack eastern Ukraine without a care for civilian casualties because those areas are mostly populated by Russian speaking Ukrainians.

This post was edited by babun1024 on Jan 31 2023 10:58am

To my mind, Ukraine appears very willing to fight to the bitter end, win or lose. Even if they lose I expect they will perpetuate resistance for some time and i expect loss of life to be collossal. This is probably quite hard for some people to accept. Being Irish, i can relate to this mindset of resistance against greater odds noting our long history with our nearest neighbor (england) who was at one time the greatest country in the world (and probably still view irish people as an inferior species, bless). The scale of war here is by a magnitude much larger noting the sheer size of the actors involved.

Ukraine to my mind is highly unlikely to have made these moves in the last 20 years if they were not encouraged and supported to do so. They continue to be supported and the war hangs in the balance. no one knows how this war is going to end. from a humanitarian standpoint it would be better if russia had a complete victory tomorrow as this WOULD prevent the loss of life tomorrow. However from an ethical standpoint it gets very murky knowing Ukraine were groomed into this position and therefore shared responsibility for their fate must be distributed. If russia had a total victory ukraine would be crippled for decades. I dont want that and no one (west or russian) should want that. everyone should want a ukraine that is functioning and prospering. in this regard a mediate peace treaty to my mind is the best result we should hope for.

No country wants poor neighbors. you want a functioning government beside you sothat you can work with them. The US exports its version of democracy to the world, presumably because it sees this as the most stable form of government. broadly this is not a terrible product but there is a difference between a carrot and a stick, and sometimes its better to do things slowly then what we have seen here. by slowly i mean (as i have always said) better for ukraine to have taken decades to remove itself from russia then to accelerate it and force the issue. we dont live in an ideal world and idealists at a certain point really need to have a degree of pragmatism, which appears to be wholly lacking in ukraine.

From a geopolitical stand point it is in the wests interests for ukraine to win. this has not changed and will not change. the only thing that trumps this position is averting a global war.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jan 31 2023 11:06am

Do you think Ukraine will end up in a sense like Ireland and Northern Ireland ?
By the way , the world is filled with Idealist, that is part of the reason why they are so easily controlled, manipulated and subjugated.

This post was edited by Hamsterbaby on Jan 31 2023 11:17am

Do you really need to give ground to these bullies ?
Did i made such noise because i got 10% for simply posting a new topic with abortion poll ?
Moderation is as good as a septic tank.




Source ?

yes.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jan 31 2023 11:38am

Norlander asked me to post it to defend you from what he said were unwarranted attacks.

Ok

There's no way you can compare Hitler / WW2 to Russia / Putin, just no way. Putin =/= Hitler and in 1939 there were no nukes / NATO. Secondly, if NATO had NOT welcomed Ukraine and Georgia in 2008 I believe there would be no war right now.

Vietnam / Afghanistan wars ended badly because the enemy stubbornly refused to give up despite being bombed wherever they showed up. Are there any signs that the Russians are going to give up? Looks like they're ramping up mobilization.

Russia can't even be bombed because of their nukes, Ukraine has got to do the job while being massive outnumbered and outgunned. It's just not possible.

Such a pathetic excuse to just add your layer of crap to the ambient bullshit.

Of course I can. A megalomaniac with designs on expanding his empire working to assimilate his neighbor's territory? Crimea = Sudetenland. Donbas = Poland. Possessing nukes is irrelevant to the comparison.

The US ramped up in Vietnam, with over a half million in-country.