Russia / Ukraine - Topic

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Jan 31 2023 07:53am

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Jan 31 2023 02:11pm)

Do you think sending tanks to Ukraine will start WW3?
If so, why?
Do you think Putin wants WW3? Over facing western tanks?

China? What?

Yeah, I think we should be careful about escalating the war into WW3. China is to Russia what is the combined west to Ukraine. Russia wouldn't endur sanctions that long if it weren't for support from China and their "allias".

This post was edited by babun1024 on Jan 31 2023 07:53am

ferdia

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#21042

Jan 31 2023 07:58am

a clarification :

a peace deal at this point would probably look like this:

Ukraine accepts the contested land captured is now Russian (what Russia currently occupies or less *but critically: crimea stays with Russia*) and Russia accepts Ukraine membership of Nato. There has to be a bit of give and take.

i accept zelensky would probably have to resign in such a scenario, or have been removed beforehand - but there is no indication anything like this will happen. ultimately there is no sign of a deal and there wont be to my mind until something radical changes on the field (the complete destruction of the ukraine army or alternatively the west giving ukraine long range weapons / or something, which would reverse russian gains).

This post was edited by ferdia on Jan 31 2023 08:13am

Djunior

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#21043

Jan 31 2023 07:59am

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Jan 31 2023 02:42pm)

I'm glad you think I'm your friend, because I never think about you at all :D
In terms of manufacturing artillery shells, Russia can outstrip NATO currently. Artillery is what the Russian army does; NATO didn't intend to fight 20th century wars in the 21st century.
Pinch yourself if you think NATO and Russia/China capabilities are even remotely close.

Wrong

In 2008 NATO decided to welcome Ukrainian future NATO membership and when the conflict broke out NATO decided to fight a proxy war against Russia using Ukrainians to do the fighting and NATO decided to say shit like "defeat and publicly humiliate Russia".

This war is being fought on Russia's doorstep, thousand mile front or more, what did you expect, no artillery meatgrinder? lol

Now the Ukrainian army is slowly being ground into a pulp while NATO and people like you seem to give zero shits. You're the one that should be sent to those trenches

This post was edited by Djunior on Jan 31 2023 08:02am

Prox1m1ty

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#21044

Jan 31 2023 08:13am

Quote (Hamsterbaby @ Jan 31 2023 01:48pm)

That was sarcasm if you didn't get it you are extremely daft, nobody in this particular thread thinks much about you at all.
The reason why they even reply you is simply because they need to pass time and get some Reeeeee response from you.

You don't have anything constructive to bring on to the table. That being said, you are a byproduct of ideology and herd instincts.

I have nothing constructive to bring? You just dedicated an entire post to attacking my character :lol:

That is as equally ironic as it is pathetic; Like I said before, I don't think about you at all, your clearly thinking about me a considerable amount.

Quote (Djunior @ Jan 31 2023 01:46pm)

This conflict could've been entirely avoided.

Come back when the Vietnam / Afghanistan wars are won and both countries are turned into functioning democracies

Dumb shits gonna be dumb

Sounds alot like revisionism. Can't you construct your argument for what ending the war TODAY looks like? After all you deride extending the war; Or is it just the supporting Ukraine part that your draws your derision?
After all this conflict has been going on since Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014, alongside Russia's support for separatists in eastern Ukraine.

I understand that its easier to sweep those realities under the rug and foghorn about "NATO expansion"

Quote (babun1024 @ Jan 31 2023 01:53pm)

I also think we should be careful about escalating into WW3. China is not really to Russia what the West is to Ukraine. China is heavily dependent on the US navy and free global shipping lanes.
The wests support for Ukraine far outstrips China's support for Russia.
If anything, Russian losses in Ukraine only benefit China overall.

Quote (ferdia @ Jan 31 2023 01:58pm)

Would make sense. Until the military landscape shifts decisively either way, I think its all speculative.
I'd also see eastern Ukraine being a massive insurgency burden to Russia, if that were to happen.
Also that holding Crimea, without holding a "buffer" zone for Crimea, is extremely difficult.

Not to say it could never happen of course.

Prox1m1ty

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#21045

Jan 31 2023 08:16am

Quote (babun1024 @ Jan 31 2023 01:53pm)

What would constitute WW3 in your opinion? Do you think its possible for great powers to have a conventional war without use of nuclear weapons? I think its unlikely. Proxy wars are always going to take a precedence.

Unless you think Putin would be willing to use nuclear weapons in a first strike?
What do you think is Russia's redline?

First it was Ukraine in NATO. Then it was further support for Ukraine. Then it was main battle tanks for Ukraine.
Was Putin bluffing after all?

Hamsterbaby

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#21046

Jan 31 2023 08:17am

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 31 Jan 2023 22:13)

I have nothing constructive to bring? You just dedicated an entire post to attacking my character :lol:
That is as equally ironic as it is pathetic; Like I said before, I don't think about you at all, your clearly thinking about me a considerable amount.

Sounds alot like revisionism. Can't you construct your argument for what ending the war TODAY looks like? After all you deride extending the war; Or is it just the supporting Ukraine part that your draws your derision?
After all this conflict has been going on since Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014, alongside Russia's support for separatists in eastern Ukraine.

I understand that its easier to sweep those realities under the rug and foghorn about "NATO expansion"

I also think we should be careful about escalating into WW3. China is not really to Russia what the West is to Ukraine. China is heavily dependent on the US navy and free global shipping lanes.
The wests support for Ukraine far outstrips China's support for Russia.
If anything, Russian losses in Ukraine only benefit China overall.

Would make sense. Until the military landscape shifts decisively either way, I think its all speculative.
I'd also see eastern Ukraine being a massive insurgency burden to Russia, if that were to happen.
Also that holding Crimea, without holding a "buffer" zone for Crimea, is extremely difficult.

Not to say it could never happen of course.

what character ? :huh:

ferdia

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#21047

Jan 31 2023 08:17am

placeholder to allow Prox post again but not get given out to for tripple posting. your welcome.
/edit oh hamster helped him instead. best friends there.

Prox1m1ty

i think the russian line is: we dont want ukraine in nato. the compromise would be take take large chunks of ukraine and leave the rest to nato. russia has been pretty clear on what it will and wont do and the west has responded accordingly. in this regard there can be considered to be talks between the US and Russia.
Russia already said they dont care about the tanks - on the proviso i assume - that tanks wont change the direction of the war (a russian win), in their world view.

Russia clearly does not want WW3 and neither does the US so both of them are showing a degree of restraint.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jan 31 2023 08:44am

Prox1m1ty

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#21048

Jan 31 2023 08:21am

Quote (ferdia @ Jan 31 2023 02:17pm)

placeholder to allow Prox post again but not get given out to for tripple posting. your welcome.
/edit oh hamster helped him instead. best friends there.

^Prox1m1ty i think the russian line is: we dont want ukraine in nato. the compromise would be take take large chunks of ukraine and leave the rest to nato.
they arelady said they dont care about the tanks - on the proviso i assume - that they wont change the direction of the war (a russian win).

So appease a landgrab aggressive action? Interesting precedence.

ferdia

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#21049

Jan 31 2023 08:22am

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Jan 31 2023 02:21pm)

So appease a land grab aggressive action? Interesting precedence.

for the US? I dont know. someone more knowledgeable on US history can comment on whether this is a precedence or not. nato entry is also a land grab if you want to consider it from another angle. i think mexico and the native american indians had to appease a land grab with the US. I dont think that just because the US stole all that land and ever looked to steal more that the same can be said for Russia. Russia has for some time been isolationist, they are reacting to a change in the status quo as opposed to driving the change. This distinction should have been accepted a long time ago in this thread (and MSM if it was worth anything) but I note that for alot of people it has not.

i will see if i can pull up anything from google, but the US pretty much has its house in order. land grabs around the world, quite a few can be mentioned (it is what it is).

This post was edited by ferdia on Jan 31 2023 08:42am

Djunior

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#21050

Jan 31 2023 08:39am

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Jan 31 2023 03:13pm)

Sounds alot like revisionism. Can't you construct your argument for what ending the war TODAY looks like? After all you deride extending the war; Or is it just the supporting Ukraine part that your draws your derision?
After all this conflict has been going on since Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014, alongside Russia's support for separatists in eastern Ukraine.

I understand that its easier to sweep those realities under the rug and foghorn about "NATO expansion"

You seriously asking this? After supporting continuous escalations? Be honest for once, lol.

Ending the war today is not possible, as you know Ukraine walked away from the negotiating table and Zelensky signed a law that forbids negotiations as long as Putin is in the kremlin.

This post was edited by Djunior on Jan 31 2023 08:40am

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