Quote (babun1024 @ 23 Jan 2023 13:24)
Getting personal is the first sign you're lost an argument, cutie pie. I agree fully Ukraine is 100% entitled to retake their territory. You could even make one of those useless polls: I'd vote for Ukraine. However, it depends on the way how Russia sees this. We don't coexist on a parallel realm. If they see it as a declaration of war oursides from their crude perspective we'd have to be prepared for improper retaliation because they can't face NATO in conventional ways. I am not like you. I am not a person to f around and find out later. I don't think Leopards are going to change the tide of the war, that's the new media hype. The way to go against Russia is Vietnam, Afghanistan etc. to force them to abandon occupied territories. I'm 100% behind all help to them leading into that direction. The problem is to make guerilla tactics successful you need support form the local population. Do you see the point here? The lands Russia has taken from Ukraine so far are mostly populated by Russian speaking people. Retaking them by unconventional means would be nigh impossible. Even more so if Russia manages to indoctrinate the next generation. That's why Ukraine is so desperate in Donbas. Contrary to Crimea, which holds little real importance for Ukraine, Donbas is a very important part of their economy.
Again, you interpreted my post the way you wanted from your own perspective, jerked off to that by yourself and blame me for being a categorical person in a very one sided categorical way of your own :lol:
Again, elaborate with facts why Crimea is so important for Ukraine? Please refrain from this type of argumentation chain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAqIJZeeXEcStop spewing Russian propaganda. No one cares who historically a country belonged to. Americas (both) belonged to native Americans then. GTFO from your country :lol:
i honestly don't know what you want to hear from me there. i feel like asking me to elaborate HOW crimea is historically, strategically, economically, culturally, ideologically, and in any other imaginable way important to ukraine is such a bad faith angle. that's like asking "how is schleswig-holstein important to germany? why not just give it to denmark?".
regarding the leopards: i said i'm undecided and think military experts should make that evaluation. you reject the idea of sending them outright, but hilariously your "reason" suddenly switched from the ludicrous notion that "
it would enable ukraine to conquer (parts of) russia" (something ukraine NEVER aspired, and would have no chance of pulling off in the first place - not that it made any strategic sense to begin with) to "
it wouldn't change anything".
it certainly looks like you are the one who has a certain conclusion in mind (no leopards), and tries every narrative in the book to justify it, no matter how obviously ridiculous or contradicting your previous "argument", lol.
regarding your "vietnam" angle: ukraine is NOT in a similar position. yes, the russian army has a significant material and personnel advantage and is operating on foreign soil. yes, they have air superiority. but there are many, very crucial differences that make such an approach a really silly and frankly disgusting suggestion:
- ukraine is technologically and structurally on the same level as russia.
- this is a war between neighbouring countries, not an overseas campaign in a remote corner of the world. it is russia's IDEAL battlefield if you look at already existing supply infrastructure.
- russia does NOT have a type of government in which a war weary, unhappy population could swing an election. pootin is a de facto dictator, who brutally cracks down on any domestic opposition.
- ukraine is understandably NOT at a point where they are willing to just let russia bomb their whole country back to the stone age while hiding underground and fatiguing the homesick occupiers.
in reality, it'd just allow russia to quickly take control of critical infrastructure. all russia would have left to do is smoke out the last resisting forces, which would be cut off any supplies then, commit another happy little genocide on those still openly opposing their new rulers, and ukraine would be de facto theirs. honestly, the more you share, the harder it becomes to take you seriously tbh.
This post was edited by fender on Jan 23 2023 01:22pm