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Jan 23 2023 04:12am
Quote (babun1024 @ Jan 23 2023 10:08am)
Polls on MSM are meant to direct public opinion so your politicians can do shit with "people" behind their decisions. Common sense and more sources to compare are better advisors.
About Russia's aggression. The thing wrong with people like you is you try to divide by going to extremes. You're a typical drone of MSM powered brainwashing. You should ask yourself questions first and use your own brain before consuming information. The answer isn't good or bad or black and white. There're facets. I'll answer your question how a normal person from Germany, mainland Europe, would answer.

Does Donbas and Crimea rightfully belong to Russia? Of course not! Russia hasn't lost anything there.
The question you should ask yourself then which I am sure you don't. Why is Russia so stuck up about Crimea? Maybe, it's their sole access to the sea there? Maybe, they don't want to give up their naval bases? What would the US do, should they be forced to abandon their bases around the world?
We, as Germans, aren't the instigator of the conflict nor a conflict party. The conflict is between geostrategical idiots from the US, Russia and puppets in Ukraine (former and current ones). We are being pulled into that conflict with bogus arguments like Ukraine is fighting for our freedom or Russia is going to be at Berlin's door next. Russia has got 0, absolutely 0 chance of fighting NATO forces! Not a chance! Ukraine isn't in NATO!
The war shouldn't have started in the first place if the Americans weren't the dumbasses to push the pressure button to the maximum without any readiness for talks about Ukraine's Nato aspiration with Russia. Now, that it started, we can't ignore. We have to let Russia bleed as much as possible for that reason we cooperate with Washington and our allies to support Ukraine in its quest to make Russia as weak as possible in the future. What are Moskow's red lines though? I am pretty sure, Moskow only cares about Crimea and how the base can be supplied over Donbas mainland. Giving Ukraine a chance to attack/retake Crimea (which was, is and always has been the reason/interest of US in Ukraine) would give Russia the reason to start a full blown conflict. Crimea itself is of no high interest to Ukrainian mainland population. It's the US that wants Russia gone from there. That's why peace talks are going to be impossible until the US decides to give up Crimea.

The full answer is Crimea and Donbass don't belong to Russia at all but I wouldn't risk a nuclear war on the continent I live over a small island.


its not safe to respond to that user btw (he is a troll), but again, i agree with everything you said.

anyway, minor add-on to my previous: A close ally of President Vladimir Putin said that deliveries of offensive weapons to Kyiv that threaten Russia's territories would lead to a global catastrophe and make arguments against using weapons of mass destruction untenable.

i.e. "dont send ukraine stuff that will enable it to attack mainland russia, or else". up till now the US has acknowledged this red line (by not giving ukraine long range stuff).

This post was edited by ferdia on Jan 23 2023 04:14am
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Jan 23 2023 04:26am
Quote (ferdia @ Jan 23 2023 11:12am)
its not safe to respond to that user btw (he is a troll), but again, i agree with everything you said.

anyway, minor add-on to my previous: A close ally of President Vladimir Putin said that deliveries of offensive weapons to Kyiv that threaten Russia's territories would lead to a global catastrophe and make arguments against using weapons of mass destruction untenable.

i.e. "dont send ukraine stuff that will enable it to attack mainland russia, or else". up till now the US has acknowledged this red line (by not giving ukraine long range stuff).


Very simple analogy for our American friends here:
A country supplies Mexico to attack Texas with tanks, arms, artillery etc. Is that country declaring war on USA? How would the US respond then?
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Jan 23 2023 04:58am
Quote (fender @ Jan 23 2023 10:47am)
do you think donbas and crimea are rightfully russia's?

i mean, it's pretty obvious you aren't a serious person, just looking at how you outright reject any poll that disagrees with your personal opinion but still, do those regions now belong to russia in your opinion?


Historically Crimea has been Russian since 1783 and only Ukrainian since 1954 because the peninsula was transferred to Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

Quote
The USSR transferred Crimea to Ukraine on the 300th anniversary of the Pereyaslav Treaty in 1954.


So Crimea has been Russian for centuries and Ukrainian for decades, it's full of ethnic Russians and Sevastopol is an important Russian naval base.


Donbas is full of ethnic Russians that were pro Russian and were targeted by Ukraine's pro Western regime after the Euromaidan coup and that really went down well, lol (shocker)

You try to frame it like nothing was going on there but what to expect from a woke "progressive" clown. GTFO already



This post was edited by Djunior on Jan 23 2023 04:59am
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Jan 23 2023 05:11am
Quote (babun1024 @ 23 Jan 2023 11:08)
Polls on MSM are meant to direct public opinion so your politicians can do shit with "people" behind their decisions. Common sense and more sources to compare are better advisors.
About Russia's aggression. The thing wrong with people like you is you try to divide by going to extremes. You're a typical drone of MSM powered brainwashing. You should ask yourself questions first and use your own brain before consuming information. The answer isn't good or bad or black and white. There're facets. I'll answer your question how a normal person from Germany, mainland Europe, would answer.

Does Donbas and Crimea rightfully belong to Russia? Of course not! Russia hasn't lost anything there.
The question you should ask yourself then which I am sure you don't. Why is Russia so stuck up about Crimea? Maybe, it's their sole access to the sea there? Maybe, they don't want to give up their naval bases? What would the US do, should they be forced to abandon their bases around the world?
We, as Germans, aren't the instigator of the conflict nor a conflict party. The conflict is between geostrategical idiots from the US, Russia and puppets in Ukraine (former and current ones). We are being pulled into that conflict with bogus arguments like Ukraine is fighting for our freedom or Russia is going to be at Berlin's door next. Russia has got 0, absolutely 0 chance of fighting NATO forces! Not a chance! Ukraine isn't in NATO!
The war shouldn't have started in the first place if the Americans weren't the dumbasses to push the pressure button to the maximum without any readiness for talks about Ukraine's Nato aspiration with Russia. Now, that it started, we can't ignore. We have to let Russia bleed as much as possible for that reason we cooperate with Washington and our allies to support Ukraine in its quest to make Russia as weak as possible in the future. What are Moskow's red lines though? I am pretty sure, Moskow only cares about Crimea and how the base can be supplied over Donbas mainland. Giving Ukraine a chance to attack/retake Crimea (which was, is and always has been the reason/interest of US in Ukraine) would give Russia the reason to start a full blown conflict. Crimea itself is of no high interest to Ukrainian mainland population. It's the US that wants Russia gone from there. That's why peace talks are going to be impossible until the US decides to give up Crimea.

The full answer is Crimea and Donbass don't belong to Russia at all but I wouldn't risk a nuclear war on the continent I live over a small island.


you clearly don't know anything about my position at all. were i the msm victim you think i am, i wouldn't be one of the few guys here in strong opposition to purchasing new (foreign) weapon systems and significantly increasing our military budget. i think that as a NATO member in central europe, there is no need for us to do any of that.
concerning the leopards, i'm also still undecided on whether we should supply ukraine with mbts or not (in short, if the war is lost for them either way, or if they can reconquer their lands without us doing that, i'm against it - if it's the only option to prevent russia from occupying the country and repeat history in ukraine, i'd begrudgingly be in favour), simply because in this politicised atmosphere, it's really difficult to tell fact from fiction, and i think it's a question that military and foreign policy experts are much more competent in answering.

what i reject, however, are meaningless common phrases like "tAnKs aRe OfFeNsiVe wEaPoNs, sEnDinG tHeM iS aN eScALaTiOn tHaT sTaRts wW3!!!1!". no one who even has the slightest clue about any of this seriously thinks ukraine would extend a potential offensive far beyond its rightful borders and try to conquer parts of russia if they get those tanks. that's a preposterous notion - just like the idea that supplying a friendly nation that has been invaded by a hostile army with the means to defend itself is some kind of "aggression" against the attacker. ukraine doesn't have to fight for OUR freedom for me to support them. fighting for THEIRS is a good enough reason for me.

also, i don't give a shit about what the US want, but it's clear that ukraine doesn't want to just cede crimea, which is perfectly understandable to me. of course it is of great importance to ukraine as well. pretty ridiculous to suggest otherwise. not to mention what kind of precedent it would set to just give up whole regions of your country to russia whenever their murderous dictator decides to annex them by force. what kind of message does that send? oh right, we already know. he already took crimea in 2014, and it barely had any consequences for russia, then he came for donbas. we all know he wants the whole black sea coast, all of ukraine, and then to transnistria next. none of that is a secret. you think he's happy then? what will happen to the ukrainians if pootin is allowed to just roll over them and we stand idly by out of fear HE "sTaRtS wW3" if we push back?
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Jan 23 2023 05:20am
Quote (fender @ Jan 23 2023 12:11pm)
what i reject, however, are meaningless common phrases like "tAnKs aRe OfFeNsiVe wEaPoNs, sEnDinG tHeM iS aN eScALaTiOn tHaT sTaRts wW3!!!1!". no one who even has the slightest clue about any of this seriously thinks ukraine would extend a potential offensive far beyond its rightful borders and try to conquer parts of russia if they get those tanks. that's a preposterous notion - just like the idea that supplying a friendly nation that has been invaded by a hostile army with the means to defend itself is some kind of "aggression" against the attacker. ukraine doesn't have to fight for OUR freedom for me to support them. fighting for THEIRS is a good enough reason for me.

We don't know. We can't trust Ukraine on that one either. Tanks are offensive weapons. Leopard + Marder combo is a force to be reckoned with and can break through defensive lines. The US limited HIMARS range to 70km for the same reason. They don't trust Ukrainians.
Quote (fender @ Jan 23 2023 12:11pm)
also, i don't give a shit about what the US want, but it's clear that ukraine doesn't want to just cede crimea, which is perfectly understandable to me. of course it is of great importance to ukraine as well. pretty ridiculous to suggest otherwise. not to mention what kind of precedent it would set to just give up whole regions of your country to russia whenever their murderous dictator decides to annex them by force. what kind of message does that send? oh right, we already know. he already took crimea in 2014, and it barely had any consequences for russia, then he came for donbas. we all know he wants the whole black sea coast, all of ukraine, and then to transnistria next. none of that is a secret. you think he's happy then? what will happen to the ukrainians if pootin is allowed to just roll over them and we stand idly by out of fear HE "sTaRtS wW3" if we push back?

This is why bleeding them dry with guerilla tactics is the best course of action. Even with all of those tanks, Ukraine can't go 1 vs 1 against Russia.

This post was edited by babun1024 on Jan 23 2023 05:21am
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Jan 23 2023 05:22am
Quote (ferdia @ 23 Jan 2023 11:12)
its not safe to respond to that user btw (he is a troll), but again, i agree with everything you said.

anyway, minor add-on to my previous: A close ally of President Vladimir Putin said that deliveries of offensive weapons to Kyiv that threaten Russia's territories would lead to a global catastrophe and make arguments against using weapons of mass destruction untenable.

i.e. "dont send ukraine stuff that will enable it to attack mainland russia, or else". up till now the US has acknowledged this red line (by not giving ukraine long range stuff).


you need to stop doing that, coward. you have decided for yourself that you don't have the balls to confront me in direct debate. that's fine. a man has to know when he's beat, and you decided that for yourself, i could actually respect that. but at least be consistent then. don't act like a little bitch, constantly instigating and spreading lies about me, trying to rile up others just because YOU can't handle some mild pushback, despite dishing out yourself. that's shameful behaviour.

Quote (babun1024 @ 23 Jan 2023 11:26)
Very simple analogy for our American friends here:
A country supplies Mexico to attack Texas with tanks, arms, artillery etc. Is that country declaring war on USA? How would the US respond then?


oh so you DO think donbas and crimea belong to russia, just like texas belongs to america right now? otherwise that analogy makes no sense, because ukraine is NOT trying to conquer russian territory, but merely trying to regain what russia annexed from what EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD had recognised as the official borders of ukraine.
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Jan 23 2023 05:28am
Quote (fender @ Jan 23 2023 12:11pm)
you clearly don't know anything about my position at all. were i the msm victim you think i am, i wouldn't be one of the few guys here in strong opposition to purchasing new (foreign) weapon systems and significantly increasing our military budget. i think that as a NATO member in central europe, there is no need for us to do any of that.
concerning the leopards, i'm also still undecided on whether we should supply ukraine with mbts or not (in short, if the war is lost for them either way, or if they can reconquer their lands without us doing that, i'm against it - if it's the only option to prevent russia from occupying the country and repeat history in ukraine, i'd begrudgingly be in favour), simply because in this politicised atmosphere, it's really difficult to tell fact from fiction, and i think it's a question that military and foreign policy experts are much more competent in answering.

what i reject, however, are meaningless common phrases like "tAnKs aRe OfFeNsiVe wEaPoNs, sEnDinG tHeM iS aN eScALaTiOn tHaT sTaRts wW3!!!1!". no one who even has the slightest clue about any of this seriously thinks ukraine would extend a potential offensive far beyond its rightful borders and try to conquer parts of russia if they get those tanks. that's a preposterous notion - just like the idea that supplying a friendly nation that has been invaded by a hostile army with the means to defend itself is some kind of "aggression" against the attacker. ukraine doesn't have to fight for OUR freedom for me to support them. fighting for THEIRS is a good enough reason for me.

also, i don't give a shit about what the US want, but it's clear that ukraine doesn't want to just cede crimea, which is perfectly understandable to me. of course it is of great importance to ukraine as well. pretty ridiculous to suggest otherwise. not to mention what kind of precedent it would set to just give up whole regions of your country to russia whenever their murderous dictator decides to annex them by force. what kind of message does that send? oh right, we already know. he already took crimea in 2014, and it barely had any consequences for russia, then he came for donbas. we all know he wants the whole black sea coast, all of ukraine, and then to transnistria next. none of that is a secret. you think he's happy then? what will happen to the ukrainians if pootin is allowed to just roll over them and we stand idly by out of fear HE "sTaRtS wW3" if we push back?


Elaborate on that one with facts.
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Jan 23 2023 05:36am
Quote (babun1024 @ 23 Jan 2023 12:20)
We don't know. We can't trust Ukraine on that one either. Tanks are offensive weapons. Leopard + Marder combo is a force to be reckoned with and can break through defensive lines. The US limited HIMARS range to 70km for the same reason. They don't trust Ukrainians.

This is why bleeding them dry with guerilla tactics is the best course of action. Even with all of those tanks, Ukraine can't go 1 vs 1 against Russia.


that doesn't even make LOGICAL, let alone strategic sense. ukraine is still very much on the defensive. they aren't even close to controlling their own territory at the moment. the fact that you're acting like they would genuinely try to conquer parts of russia just shows what a dishonest (or ignorant) perspective on the whole conflict you hold. ukraine NEVER had any such ambitions, all they wanted was PROTECTION from russian aggression (justifiably so as it turns out). at this point you're just making stuff up in order to defend your idiotic initial "point". what hope of holding any russian region with russian people would they even have? none of that makes any sense whatsoever. like i said initially: you're simply not a serious person. your categoric rejection of any poll that goes against your personal opinion already told me it's pointless to approach you with reasonable arguments...
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Jan 23 2023 06:24am
Quote (fender @ Jan 23 2023 12:36pm)
that doesn't even make LOGICAL, let alone strategic sense. ukraine is still very much on the defensive. they aren't even close to controlling their own territory at the moment. the fact that you're acting like they would genuinely try to conquer parts of russia just shows what a dishonest (or ignorant) perspective on the whole conflict you hold.

Getting personal is the first sign you're lost an argument, cutie pie. I agree fully Ukraine is 100% entitled to retake their territory. You could even make one of those useless polls: I'd vote for Ukraine. However, it depends on the way how Russia sees this. We don't coexist on a parallel realm. If they see it as a declaration of war oursides from their crude perspective we'd have to be prepared for improper retaliation because they can't face NATO in conventional ways. I am not like you. I am not a person to f around and find out later. I don't think Leopards are going to change the tide of the war, that's the new media hype. The way to go against Russia is Vietnam, Afghanistan etc. to force them to abandon occupied territories. I'm 100% behind all help to them leading into that direction. The problem is to make guerilla tactics successful you need support form the local population. Do you see the point here? The lands Russia has taken from Ukraine so far are mostly populated by Russian speaking people. Retaking them by unconventional means would be nigh impossible. Even more so if Russia manages to indoctrinate the next generation. That's why Ukraine is so desperate in Donbas. Contrary to Crimea, which holds little real importance for Ukraine, Donbas is a very important part of their economy.
Quote (fender @ Jan 23 2023 12:36pm)
ukraine NEVER had any such ambitions, all they wanted was PROTECTION from russian aggression (justifiably so as it turns out). at this point you're just making stuff up in order to defend your idiotic initial "point". what hope of holding any russian region with russian people would they even have? none of that makes any sense whatsoever. like i said initially: you're simply not a serious person. your categoric rejection of any poll that goes against your personal opinion already told me it's pointless to approach you with reasonable arguments...

Again, you interpreted my post the way you wanted from your own perspective, jerked off to that by yourself and blame me for being a categorical person in a very one sided categorical way of your own :lol:

Again, elaborate with facts why Crimea is so important for Ukraine? Please refrain from this type of argumentation chain:

Quote (Djunior @ Jan 23 2023 11:58am)
Historically Crimea has been Russian since 1783 and only Ukrainian since 1954 because the peninsula was transferred to Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea



So Crimea has been Russian for centuries and Ukrainian for decades, it's full of ethnic Russians and Sevastopol is an important Russian naval base.


Donbas is full of ethnic Russians that were pro Russian and were targeted by Ukraine's pro Western regime after the Euromaidan coup and that really went down well, lol (shocker)

You try to frame it like nothing was going on there but what to expect from a woke "progressive" clown. GTFO already

https://i.imgur.com/hMO6eh4.jpg

Stop spewing Russian propaganda. No one cares who historically a country belonged to. Americas (both) belonged to native Americans then. GTFO from your country :lol:

This post was edited by babun1024 on Jan 23 2023 06:25am
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Jan 23 2023 06:44am
Quote (Melatonina @ Jan 22 2023 10:03am)
So you're fat. Shocker.


By a scrawn's standards, maybe. 220 isn't obese. I can diet, though. You can't raise your IQ.
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