Quote (ofthevoid @ Jan 10 2023 12:56pm)
This is a western point of emphasis, one that no one really brought up or even knew about in the west until recently as kind of a rationalization why Ukraine needs to hate Russia and why we are in the right to help be against them.
I'm from eastern Europe and my grandmother who now passed was born in the 30s and her family was shipped to Siberia later on. She told me stories of famine and people starving. The thing is, no one really thinks about it on ethnic lines like you think they should. There was starvation all across the Soviet Union at that time. It wasn't as if Russians were feasting and growing fat meanwhile Ukrainians, Moldovans, other central Asian countries the 'stans were purposefully starved to death. It was shit management by the communists, who were oppressive and mismanaged the crises but not really based on ethnic lines, not at least like it's being framed today.
Idk ^Norlander feel free to opine on this as you're from there as well. I've been to Ukraine half a dozen times since 2010, been to Russia, Moldova, etc. I remember when I was in Chernivtsi there really wasn't this animosity towards Russians like people in the west think there is and this was post 2014. My wife's aunt and her husband both Ukrainians did a ton of business in Russia prior to the war. Your mind is boggled because you view Ukraine-Russia as an oppressed-oppressor relationship when in reality for decades the relationship more resembled what we have with Canada.
general mismanagement, maybe. but it wasn't just a big oopsie.
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Regional variation
The collectivization and high procurement quota explanation for the famine is called into question by the fact that the oblasts of Ukraine with the highest losses being Kyiv and Kharkiv which produced far lower amounts of grain than other sections of the country.[74] A potential explanation for this was that Kharkiv and Kyiv fulfilled and over fulfilled their grain procurements in 1930 which led to raions in these Oblasts having their procurement quotas doubled in 1931 compared to the national average increase in procurement rate of 9%. While Kharkiv and Kyiv had their quotas increased, the Odesa oblast and some raions of Dnipropetrovsk oblast had their procurement quotas decreased.[84]
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While scholars universally agree that the cause of the famine was man-made, whether the Holodomor constitutes a genocide remains in dispute.[16][17][18][19] Some historians conclude that the famine was planned and exacerbated by Joseph Stalin in order to eliminate a Ukrainian independence movement.[20] Others suggest that the famine arose because of rapid Soviet industrialisation and collectivization of agriculture.[21][22][23]
shocker shocker, where the movement was strongest afaik the quotas were increased to points beyond what they could even produce. i dont think the rationale for this was ethnic genocide, but rather political suppression.
This post was edited by thesnipa on Jan 10 2023 01:03pm