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#19381
Jan 8 2023 02:44pm
"Putin stood up determined to fix it"

:rofl: :rofl:

Wow


Quote (theCrossbones @ Jan 8 2023 07:52pm)
He can't do that.. Putin is is daddy..
He wishes that the US leadership would act just the same.


Looks like it

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Jan 8 2023 02:45pm
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#19382
Jan 8 2023 02:47pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jan 8 2023 08:27pm)
So you are talking about "negotiating" but without treaties... I hope you are aware that Putin declined to join NATO because too proud to do an application ? ("Dont want to wait in line with countries that don't matter)
IMHO the situation is much more simple: the mafia does not want to join a group of countries where people are allowed to vote, have free speech, and where superyacht can't be purchased with citizen's money.
The mafia prefers to stay in charge by force. They have all to lose with democracy. And what a mafia boss has to do to keep his place ? Make war.

Now you link me 4 quotes which are close to be 11 months old... Which are not about negotiating anything but simply letting Russia to do atrocities and condamn EU & West to bow to Russia...
It is not negotiating but surrender to the Russian governement.

Quote 1: let's back off / validate russian agression. With all the atrocities and while Ukraine initially repelled them (after this quote)... Sad.
Quote 2: Its going to be bad for EU (aka Russia will respond sanction) => Damn the Russian sanctions are terrible, believe me.
Quote 3: Acting for peace? Cool, go in Russia and ask for peace then ... You know what they will do with you.
Quote 4: Putin refused the opportunity to lose his mafiosi boss priviledges. Aka unlimited mandates, Superyacht, and Navalny in Prison. Really sorry for him, WEST fault !

"De-escalation" rofl. Macron and Scholz tried hard, then public opinion saw atrocities: Loots, Rapes, Tortures, Executions. Want to bow in front of this ? It's impossible.



I guess so, refusing to tell his own country. Weird...


fact checking, where can you show me that Putin declined to join Nato?

Are you seriously using that guardian article as a basis ? there have been countless interviews historically about this - Russia was not invited. That article (which can be found by typing the below headline into google) does relate to "George Robertson recalls Russian president did not want to wait in line with ‘countries that don’t matter" but should not be read as if Russia was invited into Nato - They were not.

headline: Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule <- True. I think there was a very good interview with Jack Straw relating to this in one of the many Netflix documentaries about Putin.

i'll leave it at that but if there is a contrasting response i will dump the rest in. keep it simple, they invaded ukraine, an independant country, they have committed war crimes and they continue to wage war. best not to dwell on the reasons or spin (both sides).

This post was edited by ferdia on Jan 8 2023 03:01pm
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#19383
Jan 8 2023 03:02pm
Quote (ferdia @ 8 Jan 2023 21:47)
fact checking, where can you show me that Putin declined to join Nato?

Are you seriously using that guardian article as a basis ? there have been countless interviews historically about this - Russia was not invited. That article (which can be found by typing the below headline into google) does relate to "George Robertson recalls Russian president did not want to wait in line with ‘countries that don’t matter" but should not be read as if Russia was invited into Nato - They were not.

headline: Ex-Nato head says Putin wanted to join alliance early on in his rule <- True.



Putin also said:

At a joint press conference in January 2003, Putin responded to a question about Ukraine. “Ukraine is an independent sovereign state, and it will choose its own path to peace and security”


My source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Robertson,_Baron_Robertson_of_Port_Ellen


https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/19/putin-russia-ukraine-nato-george-robertson/


“This was a one-on-one meeting with only the interpreters present. And I said, ‘Well, we don’t invite countries to join NATO. Countries apply for membership in NATO, and then we make a decision.’ And he said, ‘We’re not going to stand in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’ And I said, ‘Fine, let’s get down to building diplomatic relationships and see where it takes us.’”



This post was edited by Meanwhile on Jan 8 2023 03:08pm
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#19384
Jan 8 2023 03:18pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ 9 Jan 2023 00:02)
Putin also said:

At a joint press conference in January 2003, Putin responded to a question about Ukraine. “Ukraine is an independent sovereign state, and it will choose its own path to peace and security”


My source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Robertson,_Baron_Robertson_of_Port_Ellen


https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/19/putin-russia-ukraine-nato-george-robertson/


“This was a one-on-one meeting with only the interpreters present. And I said, ‘Well, we don’t invite countries to join NATO. Countries apply for membership in NATO, and then we make a decision.’ And he said, ‘We’re not going to stand in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’ And I said, ‘Fine, let’s get down to building diplomatic relationships and see where it takes us.’”


And they've made their choice.
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#19385
Jan 8 2023 03:21pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jan 8 2023 09:02pm)
Putin also said:

At a joint press conference in January 2003, Putin responded to a question about Ukraine. “Ukraine is an independent sovereign state, and it will choose its own path to peace and security”


My source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Robertson,_Baron_Robertson_of_Port_Ellen


https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/19/putin-russia-ukraine-nato-george-robertson/


“This was a one-on-one meeting with only the interpreters present. And I said, ‘Well, we don’t invite countries to join NATO. Countries apply for membership in NATO, and then we make a decision.’ And he said, ‘We’re not going to stand in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’ And I said, ‘Fine, let’s get down to building diplomatic relationships and see where it takes us.’”


yea i dont disagree with anything here, thx for elaboration.
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#19386
Jan 8 2023 03:25pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jan 8 2023 09:27pm)
So you are talking about "negotiating" but without treaties... I hope you are aware that Putin declined to join NATO because too proud to do an application ? ("Dont want to wait in line with countries that don't matter)
IMHO the situation is much more simple: the mafia does not want to join a group of countries where people are allowed to vote, have free speech, and where superyacht can't be purchased with citizen's money.
The mafia prefers to stay in charge by force. They have all to lose with democracy. And what a mafia boss has to do to keep his place ? Make war.

Now you link me 4 quotes which are close to be 11 months old... Which are not about negotiating anything but simply letting Russia to do atrocities and condamn EU & West to bow to Russia...
It is not negotiating but surrender to the Russian governement.

Quote 1: let's back off / validate russian agression. With all the atrocities and while Ukraine initially repelled them (after this quote)... Sad.
Quote 2: Its going to be bad for EU (aka Russia will respond sanction) => Damn the Russian sanctions are terrible, believe me.
Quote 3: Acting for peace? Cool, go in Russia and ask for peace then ... You know what they will do with you.
Quote 4: Putin refused the opportunity to lose his mafiosi boss priviledges. Aka unlimited mandates, Superyacht, and Navalny in Prison. Really sorry for him, WEST fault !

"De-escalation" rofl. Macron and Scholz tried hard, then public opinion saw atrocities: Loots, Rapes, Tortures, Executions. Want to bow in front of this ? It's impossible.

I guess so, refusing to tell his own country. Weird...



I'm not saying negotiating without treaties, I said the treaties you mentioned didn't matter after 2008 (and that's because of the NATO Bucharest summit).

And I said multiple times that negotiations could've taken place before the war when Russia put a new security framework up for review. This has nothing to do with the treaties you mentioned.

Now the "11 month old quotes" mention, lol are you even serious? Peak dishonesty again, nothing but peak dishonesty. YOU carry on about that old quote of mine, did you miss the date on it? :rofl:

So I found the topic that you took that quote from on the same date, same thread and showed you the things I said about negotiations and de-escalations at the beginning of the conflict when that was still possible.

Memory bad? Or just peak dishonesty? Next time you want to dig up old quotes of mine keep in mind I can look up old topics too :bonk:
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#19387
Jan 8 2023 03:34pm
Quote (ferdia @ 8 Jan 2023 22:21)
yea i dont disagree with anything here, thx for elaboration.


Personally i think he just pretended to gather more information. Once again: joining the west would have been amazing for all citizen and economy of both sides, but he probably wanted to keep the power for himself (and maybe to stay alive too)

In the same way he said Ukraine was "an independent sovereign state": he could pretend that because Ukraine was still completely dominated by central Russian governement & secret police at this time.

Unfortunately for him, 1 year later Viktor Yushchenko got elected. Viktor Yushchenko was largely representing the western part of Ukraine and was advocating NATO membership for Ukraine while being against promoting Russian as the second state language.

He got poisoned almost to death right after his election.



Quote (Djunior @ 8 Jan 2023 22:25)

Peak dishonesty again, nothing but peak dishonesty.
Memory bad? Or just peak dishonesty?
Next time you want to dig up old quotes of mine keep in mind I can look up old topics too :bonk:


This madness. Doesn't worth my time anymore. I am sorry to hear that.


This post was edited by Meanwhile on Jan 8 2023 03:38pm
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#19388
Jan 8 2023 03:39pm
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#19389
Jan 8 2023 03:44pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jan 8 2023 09:34pm)
Personally i think he just pretended to gather more information. Once again: joining the west would have been amazing for all citizen and economy of both sides, but he probably wanted to keep the power for himself (and maybe to stay alive too)

In the same way he said Ukraine was "an independent sovereign state": he could pretend that because Ukraine was still completely dominated by central Russian governement & secret police at this time.

Unfortunately for him, 1 year later Viktor Yushchenko got elected. Viktor Yushchenko was largely representing the western part of Ukraine and was advocating NATO membership for Ukraine while being against promoting Russian as the second state language.

He got poisoned almost to death right after his election.





This madness. Doesn't worth my time anymore. I am sorry to hear that.


my own personal opinion is that Nato had an oppertunity in the early 2000's to defeat Putin. By this I mean, by turning him into an ally, or at worst, neutral. the more i read the more, over the last 20 years, Ukraine was ever putin's achilles heel that he could not let go of.
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#19390
Jan 8 2023 03:46pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Jan 8 2023 01:51pm)
He can stop the war today. I didn't say his regime or he would survive.


Well that's not a very useful thing to say, then. Zelensky could stop the war today by ceding Russian occupied lands in exchange for NATO guarantees.
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