Quote (Meanwhile @ Jan 8 2023 05:22pm)
The invasion of Ukraine may also have violated international agreements that Russia is a party to, including:
The 1975 Helsinki Final Act, in which the USSR promised not to violate the "territorial integrity" of other signees, including through the use of force. Russia and Ukraine were both created as a result of the USSR's breakup.
The 1994 Budapest Memorandum, in which Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom agreed "to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine."
The Minsk Agreements, which are a pair of ceasefire agreements signed by Russia and Ukraine relating to the conflict between those countries that began in 2014
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine"Negotiating" AGAIN will probably still happen, but not now. I think some european countries tried hard to negotiate: doesn't work.
"Negotiating" the way Russia is undermining democracies with corruption, kompromat, cyber attacks, funding far right parties etc... ? It is not possible to negotiate these kind of things.
Free World countries are now only expecting Russia to be weakened so it will be a smaller nuisance, and will eventually change its foreign agression policies.
Nothing show me you keep repeating about "negotiate", more like you said 1/ russia will win the war in few days then 2/ russia will win the war in few months.
No sane mind can trust a country who pushed up the war crimes to a new level since WW2, up to bombing civilian vital infrastructures in full winter.
My response to that first part: Obviously this is no longer about international law or treaties. After 2008 that all ended and I think they warned about that in 2007 (Munich speech). Also all this has nothing to do with my post that you quoted.
Negotiating could've taken place
before the war when Russia suggested a new security framework. We all know that this was proposed, why would you deny it.
Lastly, the bolded part, you still feel the need to talk about that old quote of mine that I addressed so many times now? And was a perfectly normal quote at that time? (Feb 24 2022). I spent the time to actually dig it up (in Chopstickz old topic and now bookmarked
) and have access to what I said before and after that quote:
Quote (Djunior @ Feb 24 2022 04:21pm)
That kind of stance is not going to help anyone in this conflict...
Sadly it seems that this is going to spiral out of control. Unless NATO says eh, you know what, further expansion East really aint worth all out war. Lets back off, we had a good run anyways (seeing how many Eastern EU countries were able to join the alliance since the fall of USSR).
Which really would be the smartest move.
Quote (Djunior @ Feb 24 2022 04:40pm)
It's going to get way worse. EU plans to hit Russia with "massive sanctions" which likely result in Russian responding in kind.
They seem to forget how dependent they are on Russian gas / oil / wheat
Quote (Djunior @ Feb 24 2022 05:04pm)
Wouldn't it be better if both sides respected each others security concerns? It's a necessary step if you want to enjoy not only security but being able to trade with each other and have all other normal interactions economically and politically.
The West's stance that Russia is bad cuz they're not like us hasn't brought us any good or has it? Feel free to explain.
Quote (Djunior @ Feb 24 2022 05:21pm)
I can see this conflict from both sides, which apparently many cannot.
This isn't a single sided conflict, both the West and the Russians have blame. However, after the fall of the USSR there was a massive opportunity to build a new security agreement that would respect both sides.
It never happened and in fact the West saw itself as winner of the cold war and Russia fell into chaos in the 1990s, economic and military collapse, crime skyrocketed. Putin stood up determined to fix it.
It's simply a missed opportunity and now we're dealing with the effects.
Perhaps you should watch this, I posted it before, it's a proper lecture by John Mearsheimer from Chicago University. This is 2015 btw ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
There you have it. I said this right at the beginning of the conflict, Feb 24 2022 so you can cut back on your accusations that I never said that cuz that won't work for you anymore, lol
I've been advocating for negotiations and de-escalation right from the beginning. Let me know when I need to remind you again Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Jan 8 2023 05:28pm)
Sources? A map of NATO expansion? That is threadbare even for Kremlin standards.
Your deflecting as if this has nothing to do with Putin's character. When it literally has everything to do with it.
One person could have stopped the war, and one person still can. What does that tell you?
I recognize Russia's right to security, you however have never acknowledged Putin is even partially liable for this war. Something which he in fact, is wholly responsible.
Sorry for the late reply, I had to dig up some stuff, see above and note that my stance was to de-escalate from the very beginning, in case you would want to further your "pro Putin dictator bootlicker" narrative, lol
BustedAnd I mentioned official NATO sources and AI, not just some NATO map...