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Jan 5 2023 05:43pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jan 5 2023 05:36pm)
70% of Ukrainians celebrate Christmas on January 7. Yes i was a bit wrong, not much celebrated it the 25.
Still the Russian orthodox church == FSB, these monasteries working for Russian intelligence is not new. In the same way... pro-russian parties are just... terrible.


Sounds like Zelensky declared war on the religion of his countrymen. Raiding churches, arresting priests, seizing monasteries.
Just more of that religious tolerance, freedom of speech and democratic ideals we've come to expect from the insurrectionists who overthrew a democracy, banned the opposition and persecute religions
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Jan 5 2023 05:52pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 6 Jan 2023 00:43)
Sounds like Zelensky declared war on the religion of his countrymen. Raiding churches, arresting priests, seizing monasteries.
Just more of that religious tolerance, freedom of speech and democratic ideals we've come to expect from the insurrectionists who overthrew a democracy, banned the opposition and persecute religions


Spies and priests are two different things, and it's war time, survival conditions for Ukraines against the war crimes invader. They may arrest several and interrogate them, it's not a big deal.

"Dozens of priests have been arrested since the war began on charges of aiding Russia." Looks legit to me. USSR developped a spying network in it since decades.
It's an amazing tool for them, they are everywhere and are even getting people's secrets.
Perfectly justified.

NYT article:

Clergymen or Spies? Churches Become Tools of War in Ukraine



KYIV, Ukraine — Andriy Pavlenko, an Orthodox church abbot in eastern Ukraine, seemed to be on a selfless spiritual mission. When war came, he remained with his flock and even visited a hospital to pray with wounded soldiers.

But in fact, according to court records, Mr. Pavlenko was working actively to kill Ukrainian soldiers and Ukrainian activists, including a priest from a rival Orthodox church in his city, Sievierodonetsk.

“In the north, there are about 500 of them, with a mortar platoon, five armored personnel carriers and three tanks,” Mr. Pavlenko wrote to a Russian officer in March, as the Russian Army was hammering Sievierodonetsk and areas around it with artillery.

“He needs to be killed,” he wrote of the rival priest, according to evidence introduced at his trial in a Ukrainian court, showing he had sent lists to the Russian Army of people to round up once the city was occupied. Mr. Pavlenko was convicted as a spy this month and then traded with Russia in a prisoner exchange.

His was hardly an isolated case. In the past month, the authorities have arrested or publicly identified as suspects more than 30 clergymen and nuns of the Ukrainian arm of the Russian Orthodox Church.

To the Ukrainian security services, the Russian-aligned church, one of the country’s two major Orthodox churches, poses a uniquely subversive threat — a widely trusted institution that is not only an incubator of pro-Russia sentiment but is also infiltrated by priests, monks and nuns who have aided Russia in the war.

Recent months have brought a quick succession of searches of churches and monasteries, and decrees and laws restricting the activity of the Russian-aligned church, confusingly named the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate. On Tuesday, Ukraine’s Supreme Court upheld a 2018 law that requires truthful naming of religious organizations if they are affiliated with a country at war with Ukraine — a law tailored to force the church to call itself Russian.

President Volodymyr Zelensky this month asked Parliament to ban any church that answers to Russia, though no details have been proposed yet, so it remains unclear how that would work. The Ukrainian authorities plan to revoke the Russian church’s lease on two revered houses of worship — the Holy Dormition Cathedral and the Refectory Church — in the Monastery of the Caves complex in Kyiv, a thousand-year-old catacomb cradling the mummies of the holiest saints in Slavic Orthodoxy.

The Ukrainian crackdown on the Russian church has elicited howls of protest from both the church and the Russian government, which call it an assault on religious freedom. On Tuesday, Metropolitan Pavlo Lebed, the head of the Russian-aligned church at the Monastery of the Caves, appealed to Mr. Zelensky in a video.

“Do you want to take away faith in people, take away the last hope?” he said. “Do not tell us which church to go to.”

Mr. Zelensky, who is Jewish, and Ukrainian law enforcement agencies say the crackdown has nothing to do with religious freedom, which they argue does not extend to espionage, sedition, sabotage or treason.

For centuries, Ukraine’s Orthodox churches were under the Russian church, whose leadership in Moscow wholeheartedly supports President Vladimir V. Putin’s war. But in recent years, many priests and parishes, and millions of the faithful, have switched allegiances to the independent new Orthodox Church of Ukraine, a migration accelerated by the war. The two churches are virtually identical in liturgy; what separates them are politics and nationalism.

Early in December, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church called the accusations of collaboration between its clergy and Russia “unproven and groundless.”

The Russian-aligned church, which still represents millions of Ukrainians, insists that it cut ties with its Russian hierarchy at the onset of the war. The independent Ukrainian church calls that break insincere and flatly condemns its counterpart for not making a real break with Moscow.

“The Russian Orthodox Church is in reality a tool of Russian aggression,” Archbishop Yevstratiy, a spokesman for the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, said in an interview in the St. Michael’s Golden Domed Monastery in Kyiv.

Outside military analysts have seen reason for Ukraine’s concern. The church of the Moscow Patriarchate “materially supported Russia’s annexation of Crimea and the invasion of Eastern Ukraine,” the Institute for the Study of War, a U.S.-based analytical group, wrote in a research note on the role of the Russian-affiliated church in the war.

Evidence of churches being treated as instruments of Russian aims is commonplace. Searches have turned up wads of cash, flags of the former Russian client states in eastern Ukraine and pamphlets printed by the Russian Army for distribution in occupied territories, the Security Service of Ukraine, the domestic intelligence agency, has said in statements.

The archimandrite, or top religious official, of the Assumption Cathedral in Kherson in southern Ukraine attended a ceremony in the Kremlin in which Russia claimed to annex the Kherson province as part of Russia.

During the eight-month Russian occupation of Kherson city, Moscow’s forces cracked down on private charities in an effort to steer the population to Russian humanitarian aid programs, which required registration with occupation authorities. It was a policy of forcing dependence on Russia. When a priest nonetheless continued operating a soup kitchen, the Russian-aligned church excommunicated him.

Ukrainian officials say that priests and monks — or people posing as them — who are also spies have caused problems for Ukraine’s military. At one monastery north of Kyiv this month, the authorities said they found six men in monks’ robes — all of whom were athletically built, spoke Russian but no Ukrainian, and had no documents. The police arrested the men and are investigating whether they are spies.

“Being a priest is ideal cover for any intelligence agent,” said a Ukrainian intelligence official knowledgeable about the investigation of the Russian-aligned church, but who was not authorized to speak publicly. “People are ready to trust you, because you are a priest.”

For his part, Mr. Pavlenko, the abbot who was later convicted of espionage, took to visiting wounded Ukrainian soldiers at a hospital, according to Pavlo Dubyna, a former resident of the town and acquaintance of Mr. Pavlenko. After such visits, he would walk in the street and speak on his cellphone, Mr. Dubyna said.

Ukrainian authorities arrested the priest in April, when the Russian military was still bombarding Sievierodonetsk, which it captured in June. In an act they say proved Mr. Pavlenko’s culpability, Moscow accepted the priest in a prisoner swap for an American held by Russia, Suedi Murekezi, an Air Force veteran who had been living in southern Ukraine before the war.

Evidence from the trial opened a window into the priest’s blending of espionage and vendetta against priests in the independent Ukrainian church, which before the war had been winning away followers from the Russian church. Prosecutors presented what they said were short descriptions of the rival clergy, sent to the Russian Army by Mr. Pavlenko.

“The spiritual guide for the nationalist brigades and the Ukrainian Army in the Luhansk region,” said a March 15 note that said the priest in question should be killed.

Another message described another priest in the Ukrainian church whose brother was fighting in the war and said, “I think we need to put an end to him too, as he is not our guy.”

The post Clergymen or Spies? Churches Become Tools of War in Ukraine appeared first on New York Times.
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Jan 5 2023 05:54pm
Quote (Santara @ Jan 5 2023 07:23pm)
I hear they even annexed chunks of Ukraine they never controlled.

Meanwhile, most of the Donbas was already not under Ukrainian control at the outbreak of war and the orcs have lost between a third and a half of the territory they did grab. They've been slugging it out over a few kilometers of territory around Bakhmut for at least 5 months. Frozen ground isn't going to help them there, because the Ukrainians spent all summer digging defensive line upon defensive line to fall back on. If the orcs actually make an advance, they'll have to try digging into frozen ground.


Oh so you weren't actually asking you were just looking for an excuse to go on your weird anti Russia rant lol I'm so shocked.
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Jan 5 2023 05:55pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jan 5 2023 07:52pm)
Spies and priests are two different things, and it's war time, survival conditions for Ukraines against the war crimes invader. They may arrest several and interrogate them, it's not a big deal.

"Dozens of priests have been arrested since the war began on charges of aiding Russia." Looks legit to me. USSR developped a spying network in it since decades.
It's an amazing tool for them, they are everywhere and are even getting people's secrets.
Perfectly justified.

NYT article:

Clergymen or Spies? Churches Become Tools of War in Ukraine



KYIV, Ukraine — Andriy Pavlenko, an Orthodox church abbot in eastern Ukraine, seemed to be on a selfless spiritual mission. When war came, he remained with his flock and even visited a hospital to pray with wounded soldiers.

But in fact, according to court records, Mr. Pavlenko was working actively to kill Ukrainian soldiers and Ukrainian activists, including a priest from a rival Orthodox church in his city, Sievierodonetsk.

“In the north, there are about 500 of them, with a mortar platoon, five armored personnel carriers and three tanks,” Mr. Pavlenko wrote to a Russian officer in March, as the Russian Army was hammering Sievierodonetsk and areas around it with artillery.

“He needs to be killed,” he wrote of the rival priest, according to evidence introduced at his trial in a Ukrainian court, showing he had sent lists to the Russian Army of people to round up once the city was occupied. Mr. Pavlenko was convicted as a spy this month and then traded with Russia in a prisoner exchange.

His was hardly an isolated case. In the past month, the authorities have arrested or publicly identified as suspects more than 30 clergymen and nuns of the Ukrainian arm of the Russian Orthodox Church.

To the Ukrainian security services, the Russian-aligned church, one of the country’s two major Orthodox churches, poses a uniquely subversive threat — a widely trusted institution that is not only an incubator of pro-Russia sentiment but is also infiltrated by priests, monks and nuns who have aided Russia in the war.

Recent months have brought a quick succession of searches of churches and monasteries, and decrees and laws restricting the activity of the Russian-aligned church, confusingly named the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate. On Tuesday, Ukraine’s Supreme Court upheld a 2018 law that requires truthful naming of religious organizations if they are affiliated with a country at war with Ukraine — a law tailored to force the church to call itself Russian.

President Volodymyr Zelensky this month asked Parliament to ban any church that answers to Russia, though no details have been proposed yet, so it remains unclear how that would work. The Ukrainian authorities plan to revoke the Russian church’s lease on two revered houses of worship — the Holy Dormition Cathedral and the Refectory Church — in the Monastery of the Caves complex in Kyiv, a thousand-year-old catacomb cradling the mummies of the holiest saints in Slavic Orthodoxy.

The Ukrainian crackdown on the Russian church has elicited howls of protest from both the church and the Russian government, which call it an assault on religious freedom. On Tuesday, Metropolitan Pavlo Lebed, the head of the Russian-aligned church at the Monastery of the Caves, appealed to Mr. Zelensky in a video.

“Do you want to take away faith in people, take away the last hope?” he said. “Do not tell us which church to go to.”

Mr. Zelensky, who is Jewish, and Ukrainian law enforcement agencies say the crackdown has nothing to do with religious freedom, which they argue does not extend to espionage, sedition, sabotage or treason.

For centuries, Ukraine’s Orthodox churches were under the Russian church, whose leadership in Moscow wholeheartedly supports President Vladimir V. Putin’s war. But in recent years, many priests and parishes, and millions of the faithful, have switched allegiances to the independent new Orthodox Church of Ukraine, a migration accelerated by the war. The two churches are virtually identical in liturgy; what separates them are politics and nationalism.

Early in December, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church called the accusations of collaboration between its clergy and Russia “unproven and groundless.”

The Russian-aligned church, which still represents millions of Ukrainians, insists that it cut ties with its Russian hierarchy at the onset of the war. The independent Ukrainian church calls that break insincere and flatly condemns its counterpart for not making a real break with Moscow.

“The Russian Orthodox Church is in reality a tool of Russian aggression,” Archbishop Yevstratiy, a spokesman for the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, said in an interview in the St. Michael’s Golden Domed Monastery in Kyiv.

Outside military analysts have seen reason for Ukraine’s concern. The church of the Moscow Patriarchate “materially supported Russia’s annexation of Crimea and the invasion of Eastern Ukraine,” the Institute for the Study of War, a U.S.-based analytical group, wrote in a research note on the role of the Russian-affiliated church in the war.

Evidence of churches being treated as instruments of Russian aims is commonplace. Searches have turned up wads of cash, flags of the former Russian client states in eastern Ukraine and pamphlets printed by the Russian Army for distribution in occupied territories, the Security Service of Ukraine, the domestic intelligence agency, has said in statements.

The archimandrite, or top religious official, of the Assumption Cathedral in Kherson in southern Ukraine attended a ceremony in the Kremlin in which Russia claimed to annex the Kherson province as part of Russia.

During the eight-month Russian occupation of Kherson city, Moscow’s forces cracked down on private charities in an effort to steer the population to Russian humanitarian aid programs, which required registration with occupation authorities. It was a policy of forcing dependence on Russia. When a priest nonetheless continued operating a soup kitchen, the Russian-aligned church excommunicated him.

Ukrainian officials say that priests and monks — or people posing as them — who are also spies have caused problems for Ukraine’s military. At one monastery north of Kyiv this month, the authorities said they found six men in monks’ robes — all of whom were athletically built, spoke Russian but no Ukrainian, and had no documents. The police arrested the men and are investigating whether they are spies.

“Being a priest is ideal cover for any intelligence agent,” said a Ukrainian intelligence official knowledgeable about the investigation of the Russian-aligned church, but who was not authorized to speak publicly. “People are ready to trust you, because you are a priest.”

For his part, Mr. Pavlenko, the abbot who was later convicted of espionage, took to visiting wounded Ukrainian soldiers at a hospital, according to Pavlo Dubyna, a former resident of the town and acquaintance of Mr. Pavlenko. After such visits, he would walk in the street and speak on his cellphone, Mr. Dubyna said.

Ukrainian authorities arrested the priest in April, when the Russian military was still bombarding Sievierodonetsk, which it captured in June. In an act they say proved Mr. Pavlenko’s culpability, Moscow accepted the priest in a prisoner swap for an American held by Russia, Suedi Murekezi, an Air Force veteran who had been living in southern Ukraine before the war.

Evidence from the trial opened a window into the priest’s blending of espionage and vendetta against priests in the independent Ukrainian church, which before the war had been winning away followers from the Russian church. Prosecutors presented what they said were short descriptions of the rival clergy, sent to the Russian Army by Mr. Pavlenko.

“The spiritual guide for the nationalist brigades and the Ukrainian Army in the Luhansk region,” said a March 15 note that said the priest in question should be killed.

Another message described another priest in the Ukrainian church whose brother was fighting in the war and said, “I think we need to put an end to him too, as he is not our guy.”

The post Clergymen or Spies? Churches Become Tools of War in Ukraine appeared first on New York Times.


Just post a link you degenerate
Member
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Jan 5 2023 05:59pm
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ 6 Jan 2023 00:55)
Just post a link you degenerate


The only "degenerate" here is the one who tried to rise you.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/31/world/europe/orthodox-church-ukraine-russia.html

Figure why i posted the whole content.
Member
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Jan 5 2023 06:03pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jan 5 2023 05:59pm)
The only "degenerate" here is the one who tried to rise you.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/31/world/europe/orthodox-church-ukraine-russia.html

Figure why i posted the whole content.


To threadbreak, like normal.
Member
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Joined: May 17 2005
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Jan 5 2023 06:04pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 6 Jan 2023 01:03)
To threadbreak, like normal.


It's a paywall.

----------

Btw



This post was edited by Meanwhile on Jan 5 2023 06:06pm
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Jan 5 2023 06:19pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Jan 5 2023 07:10pm)
I mean it is clearly a more complex issue than simply saying NATO invited Ukraine to join.
The use of the language in that quote pertains to a country who has sought to join the alliance and must be then invited by all members.

Ukraine is clearly a divided country geographically and ideologically, essentially from east to west.
There have been governments for and against joining NATO at different times.
Ukrainians fought with NATO in Iraq.

It's not a stretch to say that NATO is the framework for security in Europe and has been for 70 years, even more so since the collapse of USSR.
And with that in mind, not being part of or cooperating with the alliance is an existential threat.

In terms of a nuclear conflict with Russia, it was the US and NATO that facilitated the return of Ukraines nuclear weapons to Russia after the collapse of the USSR.
The only nuclear power threatening nuclear conflict is Russia so I don't see how that argument holds water.

With regard to Ukraines importance to european security and NATO. If Russia had unconditional control of Ukraine that is then a direct threat to Poland, Hungary, Czech, Romania to mention a few.
So yes NATO have legitimate interest in Ukraine also.

In regard to Merkel blocking Ukrainian membership, we all know that under her leadership Germsnt became over dependent and overexposed to the supply of Russian gas; so I would hardly consider her input on the matter impartial.

Probably even more complex than Ukraines relationship with NATO is Russias relationship with itself.
The Kremlin appear to have never reconciled with the USSR collapse. And it's understandable in that it was only 30 years ago.
There is a perpetual drive to compete or surpass the west while working with less resources.
It's a losing game.


The Kremlin is obsessed with its European frontier and with good reason after WW2 and operation Barbosa. But to assume that NATO would ever mobilise and attempt to invade Russia is an absurd and harmful mindset.
100% there are less conventional forms of threat to Russia from NATO, but those are mutual threats and they nothing new.
Russian interference in US elections.
Russians murdered with nerve agents in the UK by Russian agents.


This obsession with its european frontier is actually to the benefit of a rising power and truly potential threat elsewhere. China.


In what way is it "a more complex issue" than NATO inviting Ukraine to join? That quote was the full text of the article in question from the NATO website.

There needs to be unanimous consent before a nation is invited to join, a nation asking to join is irrelevant to the process so NATO undeniably has a role in escalating the conflict by doing so because they knew it was a security concern for Russia.

I don't think I'm going to bother replying to the rest, you have some very delusional takes on how geopolitics works and I'd suggest you stop reading articles that purport to explain these things and read the actual history because as is, you are extremely ignorant to some basic information about how countries interact, world history and military matters.

If you care about this stuff, educating yourself will make you a much more effective advocate for your beliefs.
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Jan 5 2023 06:21pm
This post is a violation of the site rules and appropriate action was taken.

Quote (Meanwhile @ Jan 5 2023 07:59pm)
The only "degenerate" here is the one who tried to rise you.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/31/world/europe/orthodox-church-ukraine-russia.html

Figure why i posted the whole content.


Seriously, how do you communicate in English every day yet get increasingly more unintelligible? Is it a condition or something? Like Benjamin Button but with braincells?
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Jan 5 2023 06:21pm
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Jan 6 2023 12:19am)
In what way is it "a more complex issue" than NATO inviting Ukraine to join? That quote was the full text of the article in question from the NATO website.

There needs to be unanimous consent before a nation is invited to join, a nation asking to join is irrelevant to the process so NATO undeniably has a role in escalating the conflict by doing so because they knew it was a security concern for Russia.

I don't think I'm going to bother replying to the rest, you have some very delusional takes on how geopolitics works and I'd suggest you stop reading articles that purport to explain these things and read the actual history because as is, you are extremely ignorant to some basic information about how countries interact, world history and military matters.

If you care about this stuff, educating yourself will make you a much more effective advocate for your beliefs.


Way to attack me and not the actual argument.
You went from a speculative fallacy about "what if NATO did this, or what if NATO did that" to ad hominem, congratulations.



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