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Jan 5 2023 03:23pm
Quote (ownyaah @ Jan 5 2023 09:53pm)
Couple of interesting pieces of information that could be somewhat related:

1. Ground is soon frozen in most of Ukraine
2. Ukraine said Russia will do full mobilization 5th January
3. Ceasefire offer made by Putin for orthodox Christmas


Exactly.

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Jan 5 2023 03:26pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Jan 5 2023 04:46pm)
I mean I see where your coming from, but I don't believe that is a realistic outcome.

NATO can't be seen to close its open door policy or have Putin dictate its methods, that would undermine the whole alliance.
Even if the US accepted that, it would require all 30 members to ratify.


Article 10
The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.

They could have not invited them? How does the addition of Ukraine to NATO advance NATOs focus on security and stability for its members when doing so could embroil them in a nuclear conflict with Russia?

Article 1
The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.

This is why they shouldn't have invited Ukraine, and why some NATO countries were against it. Merkel said it would be considered an "act of war" by Putin, and look how that has worked out. Now NATO is funding a cold war VS Russia in a non Treaty country, as an alliance that is supposed to be focused on security, stability and defense.


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Jan 5 2023 04:33pm
In addition to rejected the Russian Christmas peace deal, the Ukrainian government formally seized control of the historic Pechersk Lavra monastery from the orthodox church and declared it property of the government, after their earlier raids on it among other churches.
It was just a legal formality for today, after the Zelensky regime raided the orthodox churches they were transferred from the Russian orthodox church to a non-affiliated Ukrainian orthodox church that exists only on paper, just to spite the Russian orthodoxy, and then transferred it to state control.
The previous head of the church was a member of the majority party pre-euromaidan coup, the russian-aligned party of regions that Zelensky also banned.
Merry orthodox Christmas. Probably not a good time for Zelensky to play the jew card :bouncy:

This post was edited by Goomshill on Jan 5 2023 04:35pm
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Jan 5 2023 04:46pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 5 Jan 2023 23:33)
In addition to rejected the Russian Christmas peace deal, the Ukrainian government formally seized control of the historic Pechersk Lavra monastery from the orthodox church and declared it property of the government, after their earlier raids on it among other churches.
It was just a legal formality for today, after the Zelensky regime raided the orthodox churches they were transferred from the Russian orthodox church to a non-affiliated Ukrainian orthodox church that exists only on paper, just to spite the Russian orthodoxy, and then transferred it to state control.
The previous head of the church was a member of the majority party pre-euromaidan coup, the russian-aligned party of regions that Zelensky also banned.
Merry orthodox Christmas. Probably not a good time for Zelensky to play the jew card :bouncy:


There's no need to play "jew card" when you are a nazi. let's make it clear:

- Russian orthodox church == FSB/kgb dogs. feel free to figure out on wikipedia
- 24-25 december russians bombed ukrainians civilans. War crimes commited by russia, remember ?
- We all know that the pro-russian parties are basically putin's puppets

Next please.
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Jan 5 2023 04:51pm
Quote (ownyaah @ Jan 5 2023 02:53pm)
Couple of interesting pieces of information that could be somewhat related:

1. Ground is soon frozen in most of Ukraine
2. Ukraine said Russia will do full mobilization 5th January
3. Ceasefire offer made by Putin for orthodox Christmas


Quote (Djunior @ Jan 5 2023 03:23pm)
Exactly.


The ground was solid all summer. What did that do for the orcs?
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Jan 5 2023 05:08pm
Quote (Santara @ Jan 5 2023 06:51pm)
The ground was solid all summer. What did that do for the orcs?


Did you miss the news? They invaded Ukraine and annexed a huge chunk of it...
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Jan 5 2023 05:10pm
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Jan 5 2023 09:26pm)
Article 10
The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.

They could have not invited them? How does the addition of Ukraine to NATO advance NATOs focus on security and stability for its members when doing so could embroil them in a nuclear conflict with Russia?

Article 1
The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.

This is why they shouldn't have invited Ukraine, and why some NATO countries were against it. Merkel said it would be considered an "act of war" by Putin, and look how that has worked out. Now NATO is funding a cold war VS Russia in a non Treaty country, as an alliance that is supposed to be focused on security, stability and defense.


I mean it is clearly a more complex issue than simply saying NATO invited Ukraine to join.
The use of the language in that quote pertains to a country who has sought to join the alliance and must be then invited by all members.

Ukraine is clearly a divided country geographically and ideologically, essentially from east to west.
There have been governments for and against joining NATO at different times.
Ukrainians fought with NATO in Iraq.

It's not a stretch to say that NATO is the framework for security in Europe and has been for 70 years, even more so since the collapse of USSR.
And with that in mind, not being part of or cooperating with the alliance is an existential threat.

In terms of a nuclear conflict with Russia, it was the US and NATO that facilitated the return of Ukraines nuclear weapons to Russia after the collapse of the USSR.
The only nuclear power threatening nuclear conflict is Russia so I don't see how that argument holds water.

With regard to Ukraines importance to european security and NATO. If Russia had unconditional control of Ukraine that is then a direct threat to Poland, Hungary, Czech, Romania to mention a few.
So yes NATO have legitimate interest in Ukraine also.

In regard to Merkel blocking Ukrainian membership, we all know that under her leadership Germsnt became over dependent and overexposed to the supply of Russian gas; so I would hardly consider her input on the matter impartial.

Probably even more complex than Ukraines relationship with NATO is Russias relationship with itself.
The Kremlin appear to have never reconciled with the USSR collapse. And it's understandable in that it was only 30 years ago.
There is a perpetual drive to compete or surpass the west while working with less resources.
It's a losing game.


The Kremlin is obsessed with its European frontier and with good reason after WW2 and operation Barbosa. But to assume that NATO would ever mobilise and attempt to invade Russia is an absurd and harmful mindset.
100% there are less conventional forms of threat to Russia from NATO, but those are mutual threats and they nothing new.
Russian interference in US elections.
Russians murdered with nerve agents in the UK by Russian agents.


This obsession with its european frontier is actually to the benefit of a rising power and truly potential threat elsewhere. China.
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Jan 5 2023 05:16pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jan 5 2023 04:46pm)
There's no need to play "jew card" when you are a nazi. let's make it clear:

- Russian orthodox church == FSB/kgb dogs. feel free to figure out on wikipedia
- 24-25 december russians bombed ukrainians civilans. War crimes commited by russia, remember ?
- We all know that the pro-russian parties are basically putin's puppets

Next please.


Both Russia and Ukraine are predominately, by far, eastern orthodox. The 24-25th havent been a holiday in any of the past decades for them, their christmas eve is tomorrow.
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Jan 5 2023 05:23pm
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Jan 5 2023 05:08pm)
Did you miss the news? They invaded Ukraine and annexed a huge chunk of it...


I hear they even annexed chunks of Ukraine they never controlled.

Meanwhile, most of the Donbas was already not under Ukrainian control at the outbreak of war and the orcs have lost between a third and a half of the territory they did grab. They've been slugging it out over a few kilometers of territory around Bakhmut for at least 5 months. Frozen ground isn't going to help them there, because the Ukrainians spent all summer digging defensive line upon defensive line to fall back on. If the orcs actually make an advance, they'll have to try digging into frozen ground.
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Jan 5 2023 05:36pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 6 Jan 2023 00:16)
Both Russia and Ukraine are predominately, by far, eastern orthodox. The 24-25th havent been a holiday in any of the past decades for them, their christmas eve is tomorrow.


70% of Ukrainians celebrate Christmas on January 7. Yes i was a bit wrong, not much celebrated it the 25.
Still the Russian orthodox church == FSB, these monasteries working for Russian intelligence is not new. In the same way... pro-russian parties are just... terrible.
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