yes Macron sucker of USA, nobody like him in France. only parigo tete de veaux.

Ca suffit si tu continues le trollage avec ton multi j'appelle ta mère pour qu'elle te coupe internet.

Oui oui je mange tout le biblioteque tu est un grande pomplamouse

This post was edited by DizzyBusiness on Jan 5 2023 12:50pm

I see the point your trying to make, it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Your insinuating NATO and Russian federation are similar entities. NATO is 30 countries; And although democracy has slipped backwards in Turkey or Hungary, the majority of members are the most democratic countries in the world.
In contrast Russia is one of the most authoritarian regimes on the planet. Terrible human rights record, next to no freedom of the press, mass repression of dissent against the regime. Not to mention the billions siphoned from the state by Putin and other oligarchs.

Is anyone even surprised at this point that any country would seek to join NATO? Especially Ukraine, in the face of falling under Putin's kleptocratic control?

Actually, not even Putin was surprised!

“I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision [on Ukraine joining NATO] is to be made by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners.” - Vladimir Putin

Countries that joined NATO did so to preserve their sovereignty and democracy.
The debate here is whether Russia has the right to deny Ukraine the freedom to preserve its sovereignty. I do not believe they have that right.

I am not convinced there was an existential threat to regular Russian people that would afford them that right to deny Ukraine from joining NATO. Something which was decades away and definitely not a certainty .

There is 100% a legitimate question over the Sevastopol naval base. Though I would argue Russia has had 3 decades to come to a different conclusion than simply annexing Crimea and then seeking to overthrow the Ukrainian government.

You should read Putins entire essay on Ukraine instead of cherry picked quotes you read in a western article about his beliefs

He has been very consistent.

you should know that ,almost all country who joined nato did it without the people agreement.(no referundum) , only elitist people voted yes to enter. cause they just wanted to protect their market/buisiness world from others world where they dont have authority ( liek russia and china for explme)

for exmple in georgia , wich is not on nato( but soon 2024 if i remember) but friendly like ukraine; people are bored, cause they dont want to loos their tradition, but occident replace their tradition with new , like roman empire did there is 2000 year with the celtic countries.

Of course Ukraine will take that sweet bait after EU first paid their outstanding gas bills to Gazprom and offered them a trade deal and staged a coup to install a pro-Western president to make double sure, lol

All those things have been pointed out multiple times in this thread already.

You just keep repeating Putin bad / kleptocrat / dictator like a broken record.

And of course you avoid to reply to what I pointed out above: Western leaders in the past successfully negotiated with the Soviets and history proves that.

Checkmate

This post was edited by Djunior on Jan 5 2023 01:38pm

Your partly correct. Western leaders have done nothing but pander to Russia since the collapse of the USSR. Running to Moscow to see what Putin needs to feel safe constantly for decades now.
Pumping billions into the Soviet Union to prop it up as they feared the potential fallout from its collapse would be worse. Then pumping billions into the Russian federation in its early stages, only for that money to vanish into oligarchs pockets.

You would do well to learn more about the federation, of whoms security you care so passionately for.

The fact that there were negotiations previously, does not infer that negotiation would be successful again. That's incredibly naive.
I'm actually in favour of negotiation, but I am not in favour of negotiating under the barrel of a tank. And neither are the Ukrainians it would appear.




Consistent? I mean evidently not. These are Putin's exact words, a direct quotation.

“I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision [on Ukraine joining NATO] is to be made by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners.” - Vladimir Putin

What part of that is consistent with Ukraine joining NATO being an existential threat?

Obviously opinions can change. Its perhaps a coincidence Vlad's opinion changed not long after the Arab spring, when other authoritarian regimes were deposed by popular uprising.
I mean if you were a dictator. That would be your greatest threat. But probably its just a coincidence.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Jan 5 2023 01:55pm

Yes I've read that quote the previous 20 times you've posted it as well, that's why I told you to read his essay so I don't have to see this brain dead argument everytime I'm browsing this thread.

Are you scared the evil dictator Putin will brainwash you if you read his in depth essay on Ukraine? Or is it laziness?

Either way can you stop spamming that quote, literally everyone who frequents this thread has seen it multiple times.

December 2021 Russia put a new security framework package on the table. They were dismissed.

The bolded is ridiculous, you can't help yourself huh.

A security package would work both ways / for both sides.