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Dec 23 2022 01:09pm
ahhh great

Chinese ambassador says Ukraine crisis has hurt relations with EU -report

https://www.reuters.com/world/chinese-ambassador-says-ukraine-crisis-has-hurt-relations-with-eu-report-2022-12-23/

Content:

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has put China in a "very difficult position" for its bilateral relations with the European Union, Fu Cong, the Chinese ambassador to the EU, was quoted as saying in an interview with the South China Morning Post published on Friday.
Fu said one of his priorities in the new role was to "depoliticise" EU-China relations, SCMP reported.
He said that China was not benefiting from the war, and did not have any interest in prolonging the conflict, the newspaper said. Fu added that China's position was "quite balanced" and that the country is ready to engage in peaceful efforts, the Morning Post said.
European Council President Charles Michel urged Chinese President Xi Jinping to use the country's "influence" on Russia over its war in Ukraine during a visit to Beijing earlier this month.


What must be spread :

- Don't buy chinese shits. Or the absolute less possible. Only focuse on good quality products, no more plastic gadget garbage.

Especially at christmas.
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Dec 23 2022 01:11pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Dec 23 2022 04:43am)
When the Orange Revolution of 2004 occurred in Ukraine, it was peaceful and didn't harm or threaten any ethnic Russians in Ukraine. But it caused Russian control and influence over the country to slip. So what was their reaction? They literally tried to assassinate Viktor Yushchenko, the presidential candidate and leader of the pro-Western side...

Russia's inaction in the face of the early phase of NATO expansion (to Poland, the Baltics and Romania) was most definitely a result of their weakness during the 90s and early 2000s, rather than a sign for their supposed benevolence and indulgence. Even during the 90s, Putin made repeated statements about how he considers the dissolution of the Soviet Union to be "the biggest political catastrophe of the 20th century". Not the second world war and the 15 million dead Russians it caused, not the cold war, not the first world war, no, the loss of key parts of Russia's empire, that is what Putin considered the biggest catastrophe. From Putin's own, public statements, we can quite clearly conclude that he was seething at the eastward expansion of NATO and the EU, but he wasn't in a position to do something about it. As soon as Russia had recovered economically and politically (as a result of the oil boom of the mid-2000s), he started fighting tooth and nail against it. (See, e.g., the Russo-Georgian war of 2008.)

How exactly is Russia encircled when 3400 kilometers of its 22400 kilometers of international land borders are with EU states?


Of course it was because they were weak, I mean they had just balkanized and collapsed. Geopolitical events and pieces on the chessboard aren't moved around by benevolence or good will, they are subject to the interests and limitations of world powers. And it was notable that in the aftermath of the fall of the USSR, the NATO expansion policy was creepingly slow- because we had little interest in them- and also peaceful and democratic. We took satellites and vassal states that were only behind the iron curtain post WW2 because they had been seized in the war, and without that military power they could join us freely. All the sphere of influence that Russia lost while they were crippled, wasn't due to us rushing in forcefully and seizing it.

Ukraine in 2014 did not follow that pattern. Russia had already reasserted itself under Putin. Ukraine was right in their back yard and their biggest buffer against NATO and of great strategic importance, which they would not part with so willingly. And we did not entice Ukraine to join NATO democratically. They rebuffed our diplomatic advances, so we overthrew their government by force and sparked a civil war. And then we laid siege to ethnic Russians who identify as legacy members of the USSR.
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Dec 23 2022 01:33pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Dec 23 2022 11:43am)
How exactly is Russia encircled when 3400 kilometers of its 22400 kilometers of international land borders are with EU states?


I think Jeffrey Sachs explained this in detail. Encircling the black sea means encircling a large part of Russia's capabilities (Crimea / Sevastopol).

Look it up on the map and you'll understand why Ukraine and Georgia were offered future NATO membership in 2008.

Encircling obviously doesn't mean that NATO is completely encircling Russia right now.

This post was edited by Djunior on Dec 23 2022 01:34pm
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Dec 23 2022 01:36pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Dec 23 2022 02:42pm)
A poor generalization. We've seen their resolve to fight. This was a 3 day operation remember? Kiev would fall in days remember?

Meanwhile close to a million men fled the Russian draft and they are executing any frontline soldiers that retreat.


I didn't generalize, I made a statement of fact about a policy their government has implemented. Plenty of them obviously do want to fight, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the majority but it doesn't change the fact that some don't and are forced to.

Why do you think I have any attachment to Russias claims about how long the operation would take? Obviously they were mistaken and obviously it hasn't been 3 days, so what? It was quite a popular global sentiment that Russia would take over very quickly, which is why the Ukrainian resistance has been hailed as being so impressive, no?

I don't see your point about the draft? Is it that the Ukrainians are fighting for what they believe in and the Russians aren't so they are doomed to fail? Seems kind of naive if that's what you are getting at
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Dec 23 2022 01:55pm
Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Dec 23 2022 07:36pm)
I didn't generalize, I made a statement of fact about a policy their government has implemented. Plenty of them obviously do want to fight, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the majority but it doesn't change the fact that some don't and are forced to.

Why do you think I have any attachment to Russias claims about how long the operation would take? Obviously they were mistaken and obviously it hasn't been 3 days, so what? It was quite a popular global sentiment that Russia would take over very quickly, which is why the Ukrainian resistance has been hailed as being so impressive, no?

I don't see your point about the draft? Is it that the Ukrainians are fighting for what they believe in and the Russians aren't so they are doomed to fail? Seems kind of naive if that's what you are getting at


You generalized that all Ukrainians had to be coerced to fight. Which is far, far from the truth.

Its proof of the Ukrainians will to fight. Russia expected to steamroll the country, expected Zelensky to flee and expected Ukrainians to capitulate or welcome them as liberators. The actually opposite happened. Russians has to take troops away from the frontlines to control insurgent actions in occupied areas.

At bold that is probably the closest thing you've posted to the truth. The senior commanders told Russian troops they were on a training mission to Belarus. In comparison the Ukrainians have been expecting this invasion and preparing for years.

Ukrainian moral has been consistently higher than the Russians. A testament to how meaningless the invasion likely is to everyday Russians.
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Dec 23 2022 02:05pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Dec 23 2022 09:42pm)
A poor generalization. We've seen their resolve to fight. This was a 3 day operation remember? Kiev would fall in days remember?

Meanwhile close to a million men fled the Russian draft and they areexecuting any frontline soldiers that retreat.


There is video evidence of Ukrainians doing that, as recently as 2-3 weeks ago where 3 were executed. As for Russians we know Wagner do it 100%

Also both sides are "forcing" soldiers to fight through mobilization.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Dec 23 2022 02:06pm
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Dec 23 2022 02:18pm
Quote (ownyaah @ 23 Dec 2022 21:05)
There is video evidence of Ukrainians doing that, as recently as 2-3 weeks ago where 3 were executed. As for Russians we know Wagner do it 100%

Also both sides are "forcing" soldiers to fight through mobilization.


"Both sides" ?
Nope, no source and numbers are vastly differents.
Thus I'm not surprised, it's in the same category of doing direct comparisons in between Iraq and Ukraine: wrong.
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Dec 23 2022 02:19pm
Quote (ownyaah @ Dec 23 2022 08:05pm)
There is video evidence of Ukrainians doing that, as recently as 2-3 weeks ago where 3 were executed. As for Russians we know Wagner do it 100%

Also both sides are "forcing" soldiers to fight through mobilization.


I would agree with that. However you cannot pretend that the motivation and moral to fight is the same? Russians thought they were going to training. Ukrainians are fighting to exist.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Dec 23 2022 02:19pm
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Dec 23 2022 02:28pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Dec 23 2022 03:55pm)
You generalized that all Ukrainians had to be coerced to fight. Which is far, far from the truth.

Its proof of the Ukrainians will to fight. Russia expected to steamroll the country, expected Zelensky to flee and expected Ukrainians to capitulate or welcome them as liberators. The actually opposite happened. Russians has to take troops away from the frontlines to control insurgent actions in occupied areas.

At bold that is probably the closest thing you've posted to the truth. The senior commanders told Russian troops they were on a training mission to Belarus. In comparison the Ukrainians have been expecting this invasion and preparing for years.

Ukrainian moral has been consistently higher than the Russians. A testament to how meaningless the invasion likely is to everyday Russians.


No, I didn't lol, you might want to work on your reading comprehension there champ.

Yes the Russians made many mistakes in their initial invasion and I dont think anyone really claims otherwise, even Russians think so. That isn't some deep insight just so you know, and if you think I have some personal attachment to them succeeding you are once again mistaken, almost seems like a trend.

I'm shocked our lone point of agreement is on something bad about Russia lol. Russia is a corrupt shithole remnant of an murderous empire, and Ukraine is just a broken off piece of that same garbage pile, so I have no problem pointing out the problems with Russia but to pretend Ukraine is some vastly different place shows how little you know about either.
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Dec 23 2022 02:29pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Dec 23 2022 11:19pm)
I would agree with that. However you cannot pretend that the motivation and moral to fight is the same? Russians thought they were going to training. Ukrainians are fighting to exist.


I don't really like the narrative, "they thought they were going to train", it is silly. Better to not infantilize. As for who has more motivation and moral, I would say it depends from unit to unit, and region to region. West Ukrainians are very motivated but less than the people from Donetsk/Luhansk. South regions are far more indifferent, or don't support the fighting such as Odessa. Both sides mobilized troops have lower motivation/morale, remember these guys are "forced" to fight. There has been plenty of videos from both sides protesting. Motivation and morale fluctuate, it is dynamic and differs month to month.


Quote (Meanwhile @ Dec 23 2022 11:18pm)
"Both sides" ?
Nope, no source and numbers are vastly differents.
Thus I'm not surprised, it's in the same category of doing direct comparisons in between Iraq and Ukraine: wrong.


You make up things as you go, and everything you say is pure propaganda. Both sides have had mobilizations, Russia 300k and Ukraine 400k+. Ukrainian men are banned from leaving the country, a fact you like to neglect. There has been hundreds of videos from both sides both protesting against the mobilization process and also entire units complaining about HEAVY losses and refusing to fight. There is also video evidence of executions of deserters, I would link it but this is Jsp -> ban.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Dec 23 2022 02:37pm
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