Quote (ferdia @ Mar 16 2022 12:16am)

regional security could have been achieved with de-escalation - i.e. the US adhering to Russia's red lines and saying no to Nato+Ukraine.
regional security could have been achieved with phased normalisation after the US adhered to Russia's red lines. i.e. Hey lets dial it back we acknowledge we went a bit overboard here.
and provided Ukraine was not invited into a trade deal with the EU, that would also not have caused an issue. To be honest I think given enough time this could have let slide.

The EU and Nato should have just waited for Putin to die of old age and then invited Ukraine into Nato and EU and Trade etc etc.

the only problem with all that is that (to my understanding) its your view that America was right to ignore Russia's red lines, America was right not to seek phased de-escalation and normalisation and the EU still wants Ukraine as does Nato. i.e. your entire logic is based on Russia backing down (before invading) rather then the west backing down (before Russia's invasion). You have not said how the west could alleviate Putin's fears or what Putin could have done differently. Look I get it, he invaded Ukraine, he's the bad guy, but as we have said so many many times, if Cuba had missiles or if Canada went into a strategic military alliance with China and lined the US border with missiles (hey defensive only we swear) there is no way that America would or should let that stand, and yes they would then be considered the bad guys, but wait, no china is the enemy, so canada would be seen as the enemy. So really now, what other option did putin have to stop Ukraine from joining Nato and the EU and having missiles aimed at Russia.

Quote (dro94 @ 16 Mar 2022 00:30)

I edited my post shortly after to clarify I deliberately didn't factor in NATO

Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ Mar 15 2022 11:35pm)

you are talking to fenderp, that dipshit is constantly not even trying to have a discussion, everything not agreeing with him is propaganda, hack, bot, whatever, while insulting you directly or via some passive aggressiveness like a fucking rat

dont even bother, you could make 100% pro west/nato posts from now on and probably be called putins double agent or so

Quote (ferdia @ 15 Mar 2022 19:42)

here let me helpfully prevent you from double posting, again. but also ~



at this point, your probably right.

Quote (fender @ Mar 15 2022 11:39pm)

fair enough, then it's true. even though russia's military was apparently criminally overrated and severely eroded by corruption, they'd still have the upper hand. almost like it's the point of nukes and defensive alliances that not every country has to maintain massive standing armies any more...

€dit: let's be real though, picking germany is a bit misleading. we might be the dominant economic power, but our armed forces are famously useless these days. i'd wager the frenchies or the brits could give the russians a real run for their money in such a scenario, considering how long it takes them to deal with ukraine...

Quote (excellence @ Mar 15 2022 11:50pm)

he is right. fender makes rpg look like plato in terms of discourse

Quote (ferdia @ 16 Mar 2022 00:36)

a nuance - de-escalation, before Russia invaded. I dont think any de-escalation can happen over the next few weeks or so, noting, again, regardless of what both sides are saying re: talks -- from what I have read, the sides Ukraine vs Russia AND West vs Russia are so far apart as to make de-escalation right now impossible. I am not looking at this exclusively from Putin's perspective, so to reiterate:

The West wants a trade deal with the Ukraine, they are also very happy to let Ukraine into the EU and Nato (accept this does not happen overnight and takes years).
Ukraine wants a trade deal with the West. they are also very happy to be let into the EU and Nato (accept this does not happen overnight and takes years).
Putin (read: Russia) was happy for Ukraine to do its own thing, provided it did not become his enemy. Talk and movements re: Trade Deal, EU, Nato and political movements in Ukraine made him see Ukraine as a potential enemy on his doorstep.

The West and Russia discussed Russia's concerns. The West did not agree with Russia and did not acknowledge Russia's red lines. The talks failed. Russia invaded.

If you disagree with any of that let me know. stating facts is not the same thing as being a war apologist.