I'm not inclined to think any major power was responsible. Both the Russian and NATO sides have very little to no material to gain and quite a bit to risk in propaganda. I'd guess it was a small group loosely attached to a side who took action on their own initiative while expecting a different result than what occured. Ukraine itself I might suspect, but even there I think it more likely a small and mostly independent group.

Which one is your country? Is it one of the two "special ones" that you mention?

See the difference about security? Germany has low military spending. It might be understandable for German people, they know that looking on the map Russia has to attack Poland before invading Germany. So they could possibly delay their military spending and start worrying after Russians conquer Poland.
On the same time, such behavior is totally unacceptable for Poland.
Security is the most important human need.
If Germans dont understand it, there will be usa-uk-centraleurope alliance. Maybe including Ukraine in the future also.

And about France, Im sorry to say that but for past 100years Russia has had a great political impact in France, and still has.
Nearly all parties are some kind of Russia friends. Ms Le Pen get her party funding from Kremlin.
Macron is the most antirussian in French politics, yet he still is calling Putin often and trying to negotiate, while Putin laughs and only listen to arms, not nice words.
Soviet influence was one of the reasons why France lost ww2 so badly. Soviets were nazi Ally back then, they made antiwar propaganda in France, so French went antiwar and surrendered instead.

So if we are to build a truly united Europe, Germans and French should leave handling Russia relations to Poland, as we are neighbours and experts with Russia.
All deals made in Russia- Germany- France triangle, above polish heads, are catastrophic for EU project, and you cant expect Poles to just watch it and adapt what you guys negotiate with Putin.
Until Germans/French get more mature, there will be usa-uk-centraleurope alliance, because as I wrote earlier: security is the most important need for a human

This post was edited by Ironfister on Nov 21 2022 01:33pm

"ok".

The Polish have a raging hateboner for Russia. For understandable reason, but you guys are definitely not objective or level-headed when it comes to anything Russia. Also, the rationale you gave for low German military spending is ridiculous. It takes years to ramp up military production and capacities; the Germans only getting theirs going once Russia has already started invading Poland would be far too late.

The true reason is that they rely on NATO, i.e. the U.S., for protection. American investment funds hold trillions in the Western European economy, they cannot allow a Russian takeover of Western Europe under any circumstances. Not only would it be disastrous for the American billionaire class, it would also shred the pension funds of tens of millions of Americans over night and lead to mass poverty right in the heart of the U.S.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 21 2022 01:50pm

Do you prefer a Germany / Europe to have a relatively independent foreign policy free of influence from China / US / Russia in the near future.
Deciding how you should move forward depending on what is good for the economy and security of your people.

You make some good points and others that don't make a lot of sense, ill go through it point by point with my views.


Neither, but small nations can't be expected to not fold into alliances around larger nations with stronger sphere pull. At best they can play all sides to maximize their gains, or survive upheaval with a balancing role, or act as bridges. This is how even tiny insignificant peoples have survived and prospered throughout human civilization. Poland is a special example, because in my personal view, in a ideal Europe it would serve as the bridge between Russia and Germany.



You are dealing with Russia, not soviet union. Most Russian geopolitical thinkers view favorably to a trilateral power balance in Europe with Germany, France and Russia each forming a sphere. The idea that Russia wants to march into Poland and afterwards Germany is a bit silly. Germans also sort of viewed it like this which explains low spending. Eastern Europe has turned too much into a US-proxy and subsequently helped fold Europe. I've said this before, but a unified Europe is 100 times better for Europeans than one clawed apart by US/China. Eu should've never toyed around in Ukraine and Belarus, it is very unlikely to be worth the price.


The French are very busy with their African affairs, running their semi-colonies, for them the European theater is secondary. It isn't that they are strong allies of Russians, it is that they want a balanced relation with Russia and focus on Africa. Which honestly speaking isn't a bad strategy.


This doesn't make a lot of sense, since Poland and Russians aren't equals. The best Poland could do, in an ideal Europe would be to act as a bridge.


I would say that any deal involving Europe, made by US is a true catastrophe because it is one devoid of balance and self-interest. USA-UK-central Europe is just a divided Europe that gets raped by China/US. Instead of Europe dictating, they are turned into pawns. Not favorable for any european.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Nov 21 2022 02:05pm

I think for Europe to truly prosper:
1.Kaliningrad is given back
2. South/East Ukraine and Belarus becomes part of Russia
3. Poland acts as a bridge
4. France / Germany / Russia trilateral security/economical
5. Russia obligated to continue access of material and energy needs of Europe (all of Europe)

Last but most important of all
6. Cutting China and US completely off from sphere of influence. Trade will be done only in such a way it doesn't lead to deindustrialization of Europe.

This is all fantasy, because Europe has already been divided and fucked.. Thing is if we view this through a moral lense(which I hate), there is a sort of beautiful irony to it.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Nov 21 2022 02:07pm

The red is true, I prefer countries to be independent from influence.
I want to see competition. But not in a aggressive manner. A competition between countries that can produce better quality products and countries deciding who can give better deals.
And for both China and USA to compete and in future India as well.

So countries can decide on and by themselves who they prefer to deal with forcing others who wants to maintain a presence to produce better innovation and deals.
This will make the world a better place.

But of course it is all fantasy.

why are people still talking like this?

we know at this point that russia cant even take ukraine so they clearly wouldnt do shit against poland even if they received no support

russia isnt taking over anything soon

Hey remember this one?

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-soldiers-supplied-with-viagra-to-rape-ukrainians-un-official-2022-10?international=true&r=US&IR=T

Quote

Russian soldiers are supplied with Viagra to rape Ukrainian women and 'dehumanize' them, claims UN official

Ofc the usual propaganda loving shit posters jumped on it


Sauceman6000 -->






Well guess what https://thegrayzone.com/2022/11/13/un-envoy-fabricating-viagra-russian/