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Feb 12 2020 10:27pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ 13 Feb 2020 05:15)
The nazis werent a "faction of socialists" though, unless youre comfirtable with broadening the definition of socialism to the point of meaninglessness.


are you surprised that someone who considers 'camp of the saints' merely an 'award-winning book' would subscribe to that idiotic spin by right wing pundits trying to whitewash history? peddling that completely idiotic talking point, as if it was a serious intellectual argument, really tells you all you need to know about camboy's 'intelligence'. he's the dinesh d'souza of this forum...


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Feb 12 2020 10:32pm
Quote (cambovenzi @ Feb 13 2020 01:52pm)
I see this delusional hateful loser is taking the defeat of the impeachment sham well.

TDS, find a cure.



We've already been over this. Being in favor of liberty and against government benefits, regulatory capture, special protections and subsidies for corporations doesn't make me a corporate shill.

And no, being socialist scum is not better than being a libertarian.


Did we end up establishing you were anti copyright?
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Feb 12 2020 10:35pm
This post is a violation of the site rules and appropriate action was taken.

Quote (fender @ Feb 12 2020 11:20pm)
you described stephen miller's

aggressive promoting of the white genocide novel 'Camp of the Saints', suggesting to breitbart they write a story drawing parallels between the disgusting and dehumanising descriptions of immigrants in the book, and the current border / immigration situation

as

'recommending award-winning books'.


again, just because it might be technically correct (just like "austere religious leader"), doesn't mean it isn't obvious that your only intention is to deflect and muddy the waters.
in this particular context it means exactly that: stephen miller IS pushing a white nationalist agenda - and you're engaging in mental gymnastics to make excuses for him. that's why you can accurately be described as 'white nationalism apologist'.

also, you completely ignored his disgusting comments and policies against minorities entirely, acting like they didn't exist, just because you don't like the source that repoted on that. your efforts to DOWNPLAY STEPHEN MILLER'S WHITE NATIONALISM are well documented, thank you for providing the link to the conversation, idiot.

now get lost, brownshirt. no one needs more of that your bigoted filth...


Yes I used different words to briefly describe the list of claims than what the smear site used.
How dare I not use the language you want when describing something.
You are a whiny bitch and think I should have described the book in a more negative light. Ok? Does that mean i am defending white supremacy? No.

That is not support for white supremacy.

My stated intention from the start was to point out that the SPLC is not a reputable site, and to hone in on actual credible allegations and arguments by explicitly asking you to point out any you thought were particularly damning.

You instead chose to go on an idiotic tirade accusing me of supporting white nationalism and being an apologist for white supremacy and are now clinging to it months later.

I am not a white supremacist or fascist, idiot. I openly and consistently condemn fascism, communism and all forms of government aggression and evil.
Meanwhile you shill for big government and socialism and seek to undermine the rights and liberties of Americans from abroad.

Deep down you know I am not, but you are trying to smear me as one anyways because you are a garbage person and don't have the intellect and knowledge to challenge me on the issues and actual arguments.
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Feb 12 2020 10:40pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Feb 12 2020 11:15pm)
The nazis werent a "faction of socialists" though, unless youre comfirtable with broadening the definition of socialism to the point of meaninglessness.


Yes people who recognize the fact that "national socialists" have a connection to socialism necessarily means they are comfortable broadening the definition to the point of meaninglessness!
great theory.

I fully recognize there are significant differences between the national socialists and other factions of socialists and communists.
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Feb 12 2020 10:49pm
Quote (cambovenzi @ Feb 13 2020 03:40pm)
Yes people who recognize the fact that "national socialists" have a connection to socialism necessarily means they are comfortable broadening the definition to the point of meaninglessness!
great theory.

I fully recognize there are significant differences between the national socialists and other factions of socialists and communists.


Can you describe this connection?
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Feb 12 2020 11:03pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ Feb 12 2020 11:49pm)
Can you describe this connection?


Quote
What Mises identified was that private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and that the actual substance of ownership of the means of production resided in the German government. For it was the German government and not the nominal private owners that exercised all of the substantive powers of ownership: it, not the nominal private owners, decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be distributed, as well as what prices would be charged and what wages would be paid, and what dividends or other income the nominal private owners would be permitted to receive. The position of the alleged private owners, Mises showed, was reduced essentially to that of government pensioners.

De facto government ownership of the means of production, as Mises termed it, was logically implied by such fundamental collectivist principles embraced by the Nazis as that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. If the individual is a means to the ends of the State, so too, of course, is his property. Just as he is owned by the State, his property is also owned by the State.


https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian
https://fee.org/articles/were-the-nazis-really-socialists-it-depends-on-how-you-define-socialism/
https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/02/nazis-still-socialists-jonah-goldberg/

Quote
In Germany, the first purveyors of “State socialism” emerged shortly prior to Marx. Johann Karl Rodbertus, like Marx, rejected many of the existing socialist theories as untenable. Rodbertus was the first socialist thinker to advocate the control of both production and distribution, and to achieve this, the socialist must use the State. The greatest expositor of his ideas was Ferdinand Lassalle, whose proselytizing led to the rapid growth in popularity of what Mises would call “socialism of the German pattern.”

German socialism, as Mises defines it, differs from what he called “socialism of the Russian pattern” in that “it, seemingly and nominally, maintains private ownership of the means of production, entrepreneurship, and market exchange.” However, this is only a superficial system of private ownership because through a complete system of economic intervention and control, the entrepreneurial function of the property owners is completely controlled by the State. By this, Mises means that shop owners do not speculate about future events for the purpose of allocating resources in the pursuit of profits. Just like in the Soviet Union, this entrepreneurial speculation and resource allocation is done by a single entity, the State, and economic calculation is thus impossible.

“In Nazi Germany,” Mises tells us, the property owners “were called shop managers or Betriebsführer. The government tells these seeming entrepreneurs what and how to produce, at what prices and from whom to buy, at what prices and to whom to sell. The government decrees at what wages labourers should work, and to whom and under what terms the capitalists should entrust their funds. Market exchange is but a sham. As all prices, wages and interest rates are fixed by the authority, they are prices, wages and interest rates in appearance only; in fact they are merely quantitative terms in the authoritarian orders determining each citizen’s income, consumption and standard of living. The authority, not the consumers, directs production. The central board of production management is supreme; all citizens are nothing else but civil servants. This is socialism with the outward appearance of capitalism. Some labels of the capitalistic market economy are retained, but they signify here something entirely different from what they mean in the market economy.”

But the Soviets themselves also played a part in the crafting of the myth of the Nazi capitalist. The Nazis were not trying to hide their socialism (after all, snarky tweets aside, socialism was in the name); they were just implementing socialism according to a different strategy than that of the Marxist socialists.


Quote
When the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union, Joseph Stalin and his lackeys used the new communist narrative to redefine Nazi Socialism — which was never Marxism but was based on the theories of the original German socialists who directly influenced Marx’s later ideas — as “capitalists.” According to this new narrative, the Nazis were in the final and worst stage of capitalism.

At a time when many members of the European intelligentsia were still enamored with the Soviet Union, this narrative of the Nazis as capitalists was a welcome lie. But this idea is one that comes not from any grounding in economic principles, but rather the Soviet interpretation of the Marxian framework. The Nazis, who touted their socialism proudly and implemented socialist policies with great consistency, were now being referred to as capitalists for no reason other than they did not fit cleanly into the Soviet-Marxist worldview, and this false narrative survives today.


https://mises.org/library/myth-nazi-capitalism
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Feb 12 2020 11:16pm
Quote (cambovenzi @ Feb 13 2020 04:03pm)


Socialism is the means of production seized by and for the workers, not the state, the state taking ownership of production from the workers is as far from socialism as you can get.
You are describing communism.
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Feb 12 2020 11:36pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ Feb 13 2020 12:16am)
Socialism is the means of production seized by and for the workers, not the state, the state taking ownership of production from the workers is as far from socialism as you can get.
You are describing communism.


Communism and socialism aren't opposites.

The private ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods already has a name. Its called Capitalism.

A group of people seeking to forcefully seize/steal control of the means of production and enforce a socialist order could reasonably be called a state.

In practice socialists throughout history have often used the state to seize and control the means of production to various degrees, claiming its for the workers.
We should all be familiar with the results.

I don't argue against the fact that socialists and their governments don't actually represent 'the workers' and aren't pro-liberty or supportive of economic freedom.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Feb 12 2020 11:36pm
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Feb 12 2020 11:44pm
There is no private ownership in communism. Everything is communally owned. This is the key difference.

The real question is how much we want government or a state entity to control aspects of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services.

Right now, the majority of our society thinks that services such as K-12 public education and medical care for the elderly and disabled (Medicare), for instance, are reasonable amounts of government intervention in the production, distribution and exchange of goods and services.

Discussions about whether Sanders is a communist or not are often unproductive. Sanders is proposing we move the needle further toward more government ownership/intervention in some areas such as health care and education. This should be the focus of discussion imo.
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Feb 12 2020 11:44pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ 13 Feb 2020 00:16)
Socialism is the means of production seized by and for the workers, not the state, the state taking ownership of production from the workers is as far from socialism as you can get.
You are describing communism.


Nordic states are considered socialist and the state owns production of the most important resources.
same with Venezuela

'workers' can work for the state

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