d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russiagate Gathering Steam?
Prev1156157158159160445Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 49,896
Joined: Jun 19 2006
Gold: 3.88
Jun 10 2018 02:16pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 11 2018 07:13am)
Paul Manafort laundered money and wants to lie about it? Shocking.

Nothing to do with Russia interfering in the US election. Old buddy Mueller must be getting desperate.


Oh so you read the indictment?
Member
Posts: 34,649
Joined: Jul 2 2007
Gold: 273.37
Jun 10 2018 02:54pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ Jun 10 2018 03:16pm)
Oh so you read the indictment?


Manafort is in legal trouble. His Ukrainian henchman is not proof that Russia colluded with the Trump campaign to defeat Hillary Clinton.

Let's not forget what we're looking for.
Member
Posts: 49,896
Joined: Jun 19 2006
Gold: 3.88
Jun 10 2018 02:57pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 11 2018 07:54am)
Manafort is in legal trouble. His Ukrainian henchman is not proof that Russia colluded with the Trump campaign to defeat Hillary Clinton.

Let's not forget what we're looking for.


So you read the indictment?
Member
Posts: 34,649
Joined: Jul 2 2007
Gold: 273.37
Jun 10 2018 02:58pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ Jun 10 2018 03:57pm)
So you read the indictment?


Yes
Member
Posts: 49,896
Joined: Jun 19 2006
Gold: 3.88
Jun 10 2018 02:59pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 11 2018 07:58am)
Yes


Link it up then..
Member
Posts: 64,763
Joined: Oct 25 2006
Gold: 0.00
Jun 10 2018 03:11pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 10 2018 02:13pm)
Paul Manafort laundered money and wants to lie about it? Shocking.

Nothing to do with Russia interfering in the US election. Old buddy Mueller must be getting desperate.


Not really desperate. Getting manafort was the bare minimum a competent investigation should accomplish.
Member
Posts: 33,928
Joined: Oct 9 2008
Gold: 2,528.52
Jun 10 2018 04:00pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ Jun 10 2018 04:59pm)
Link it up then..


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=manafort+indictment+text
Member
Posts: 50,909
Joined: Jan 20 2010
Gold: 5,335.99
Jun 12 2018 02:23pm
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-12/mueller-seeks-order-protecting-evidence-in-russia-troll-case
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/12/mueller-warns-that-election-politics-meddling-by-foreigners-is-still-happening.html

Quote
Mueller asked a federal judge in Washington for an order that would protect the handover of voluminous evidence to lawyers for Concord Management and Consulting LLC, one of three companies and 13 Russian nationals charged in a February indictment.
That protection plan would bar any of the defendants to review the evidence found until they appear before U.S. court.


Civil liberties spidey sense tingling.
Mueller is again seeking to wriggle out from under the concord threat of discovery. First it was delaying tactics and trying to oppose a speedy trial. Then it was gimmicks like dumping terabytes of untranslated russian social media posts into the docket to spam the trial to death. Now he's directly asking the judge to keep the evidence hidden for citing a nebulous national security need, right in the vein of bush/obama, except this time citing the election interference as the threat itself. Except unlike those, this is in the discovery process of a trial

So mueller is effectively trying to restrict the discovery and deny the russians the ability to read the evidence against them. He's doing it by demanding they appear in court first, which he knows they don't want to do and that he'd be trying them in abstentia as is.
On one hand, this is a dangerous civil liberties game he's digging at, trying to both prosecute an entity and deny their right to discovery. They have a right to a speedy trial, they have a right to know the evidence against them. If Mueller can't produce that evidence, his only option should be to drop the charges. That's how it works in our legal system. For him to try to have his cake and eat it too by saying he wants to keep the trial ongoing but refuse to turn over the evidence without conditions is dangerous, even if he's technically worming his way around discovery by making it possible.
On the other hand, we need to look at that old question I've taken so many runs at about Mueller's motivations: Are they political or professional? Is he really the unbiased investigator bringing fair justice, or is the special counsel being used as a political or geopolitical bludgeon? That's where this is worrying. Because as Mueller has laid it out, the Russians could dodge his discovery protection tactic by showing up in court tomorrow. But if they did that, he would have them arrested on the spot and detained so they couldn't return to Russia. He's transparently attempting to coerce them into giving up their discovery by attacking the shield of extradition they've been using to exploit his trial, and while turnabout is fair play and that speaks to some gray area bout civil liberties, what its really damning for is the political implications. Because if all it took was them showing up to thwart his national security argument, the Russians could just send over a sacrifice lamb and seize those materials all the same. To russia its nothing, they have plenty of disposable people. But to Mueller it would be a PR coup, he'd get to say he's making his first Russia arrest. But the interests of his role as prosecutor cannot be that kind of political grandstanding, not if he's truly the consummate professional he's been made out to be. If he was just interested in sorting out the truth behind russian interference and prosecuting it, then its totally irrelevant whether he gets to claim one throwaway ruskie or not. It looks more like he's trying to either avoid being embarrassed by dropping the case or score a victory in optics by seizing some random russian.
Member
Posts: 93,001
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,299.94
Jun 12 2018 02:26pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 12 2018 02:23pm)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-12/mueller-seeks-order-protecting-evidence-in-russia-troll-case
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/12/mueller-warns-that-election-politics-meddling-by-foreigners-is-still-happening.html



Civil liberties spidey sense tingling.
Mueller is again seeking to wriggle out from under the concord threat of discovery. First it was delaying tactics and trying to oppose a speedy trial. Then it was gimmicks like dumping terabytes of untranslated russian social media posts into the docket to spam the trial to death. Now he's directly asking the judge to keep the evidence hidden for citing a nebulous national security need, right in the vein of bush/obama, except this time citing the election interference as the threat itself. Except unlike those, this is in the discovery process of a trial

So mueller is effectively trying to restrict the discovery and deny the russians the ability to read the evidence against them. He's doing it by demanding they appear in court first, which he knows they don't want to do and that he'd be trying them in abstentia as is.
On one hand, this is a dangerous civil liberties game he's digging at, trying to both prosecute an entity and deny their right to discovery. They have a right to a speedy trial, they have a right to know the evidence against them. If Mueller can't produce that evidence, his only option should be to drop the charges. That's how it works in our legal system. For him to try to have his cake and eat it too by saying he wants to keep the trial ongoing but refuse to turn over the evidence without conditions is dangerous, even if he's technically worming his way around discovery by making it possible.
On the other hand, we need to look at that old question I've taken so many runs at about Mueller's motivations: Are they political or professional? Is he really the unbiased investigator bringing fair justice, or is the special counsel being used as a political or geopolitical bludgeon? That's where this is worrying. Because as Mueller has laid it out, the Russians could dodge his discovery protection tactic by showing up in court tomorrow. But if they did that, he would have them arrested on the spot and detained so they couldn't return to Russia. He's transparently attempting to coerce them into giving up their discovery by attacking the shield of extradition they've been using to exploit his trial, and while turnabout is fair play and that speaks to some gray area bout civil liberties, what its really damning for is the political implications. Because if all it took was them showing up to thwart his national security argument, the Russians could just send over a sacrifice lamb and seize those materials all the same. To russia its nothing, they have plenty of disposable people. But to Mueller it would be a PR coup, he'd get to say he's making his first Russia arrest. But the interests of his role as prosecutor cannot be that kind of political grandstanding, not if he's truly the consummate professional he's been made out to be. If he was just interested in sorting out the truth behind russian interference and prosecuting it, then its totally irrelevant whether he gets to claim one throwaway ruskie or not. It looks more like he's trying to either avoid being embarrassed by dropping the case or score a victory in optics by seizing some random russian.


how dare Mueller deny russian nationals the 4th amendment of the united states.
Member
Posts: 50,909
Joined: Jan 20 2010
Gold: 5,335.99
Jun 12 2018 02:30pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Jun 12 2018 02:26pm)
how dare Mueller deny russian nationals the 4th amendment of the united states.


me, waiting for the ACLU to hop onto the case

Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1156157158159160445Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll