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Nov 1 2022 03:03pm
Russia loves to deal itself self-inflicted wounds--the examples are numerous--and pretend an outsider committed them so that it can paint itself as a victim and thereby justify future horrible acts.

This post was edited by Palasan on Nov 1 2022 03:04pm
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Nov 1 2022 03:06pm
Quote (Palasan @ Nov 1 2022 09:03pm)
Russia loves to deal itself self-inflicted wounds--the examples are numerous--and pretend an outsider committed them so that it can paint itself as a victim and thereby justify future horrible acts.


feel free to give 3 examples
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Nov 1 2022 03:11pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 1 2022 03:00pm)
Imho, a good and realistic compromise would be that Russia retreats from all Ukrainian territory except Crimea, but cedes any oil or gas found offshore from Crimea. Ukraine is free to join the EU. Ukraine refrains from joining NATO and commits itself to not host large contingents of NATO troops on its territory, but is otherwise free to engage in military cooperation with whoever they want. Ukraine waives any claims to reparations for the war and enshrines the Russian language as well as statutes of autonomy for its eastern regions into its constitution. Russia publicly acknowledges that any future violation of Ukraine's sovereignty renders this whole peace treaty null and void and that Ukraine will be free to join NATO with immediate effect in any such scenario.


That's not a compromise in today's reality, that's a wish list. What you just described is pretty much a middle point between point two and 3 leaning more towards 3. It won't happen though. Maybe I would of agreed if this was the outcome prior to the war but now there's little chance of Russia returning the Donbass to Ukrainian sovereignty, not after they publicly annexed them.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 1 2022 03:06pm)
So the unofficial words from Western diplomats, spoken in backroom negotiations in 1989 and 1990 when it wasn't even clear yet whether the Warsaw Pact would disolve, are to be treated as gospel... but we're supposed to look the other way when it comes to Russia's brazen violation of the promises they made to Ukraine in an official treaty which was signed by their literal president?


Well I mean what's happening now with Ukraine didn't happen out of the blue. One event preceded the other. If there's no NATO creep eastward there's no tilt of Ukraine against Russia spurred by the west and the close neighbors to the west is there?

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Nov 1 2022 03:12pm
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Nov 1 2022 03:15pm
Quote (ferdia @ Nov 1 2022 11:06pm)
feel free to give 3 examples


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Nord_Stream_gas_leaks
https://www.finlandatwar.com/the-road-to-war-the-shelling-of-mainila/


Now it's happening on daily basis from shelling the nuclear facility in eastern Ukraine even being caught red-handed by the visiting comission pointing out that the way a rocket landed it obviously came from Russian held territory for which Russians said its a special Ukrainian rocket that did a 180 degree FLIP LOL before landing to frame them ROFL to massacres in Central Ukraine by Russians they are constantly blaming imaginary nazis for.
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Nov 1 2022 03:25pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 1 2022 04:03pm)
countries left the USSR and gained independence. some of them left the favor of Russia rather quickly, some of them have left much later, and some are still in the favor of Russia. once they do leave russia, through american led coups or simply from electing more liberal leaders (other places have ebbs and flows of a conservative to liberal pendulum just as we do) they're seen as an enemy of Russia. and just as we led a coup in Ukraine, Russia is prone to lead a coup in their country to stop any liberal movements from detaching from the Russian sphere of influence. if they have a liberal govt that is feeling the pressure of Russia who are we to deny them aid, whether it's NATO membership or just aid/intel, because of an informal hand shake 30 years ago made to a country that was on the brink of violent collapse and in fact asking the USA for inaction to facilitate said collapse. we could have moved in and destroyed them but did not due to the threat of MAD during said collapse. they had a broken leg, we allowed them time to heal. and by proxy they basically said leave us be and we wont end the earth or sell nukes to terrorists. yet a single line from an informal agreement is taken as literally as idiotic interpretations of the 2nd amendment claiming we should be able to as private citizens own intercontinental ballistic missiles. just as we moved more than an inch west Russia has violently defended the expansion of western governance across international borders. they're not kittens, they're poisoners, they're assassins, they're run by ex-KGB, and they've carried on it's legacy.


Weird framing. Why would we destroy them? There's nothing to gain and everything to lose from doing this. Very few things in life motivate the masses more than external threats and armies moving in on you and at that point for no good reason. Why would we attack when someone like Yeltsin was basically doing the wests will in deconstructing organically the dead empire.

And to be honest with you, I don't view them as the good guys, I just view them as self-interested and assertive. I have no illusions, they for sure are imperialistic and want to domineer their smaller neighbors but tbh that's nothing new under the sun. That's how the world worked for millennia. They wanted a seat at the table at one point, even hinted at joining NATO we told them to get lost and accept the loss and that we run shit now. This is how they responded, who would have thought.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Nov 1 2022 03:27pm
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Nov 1 2022 03:30pm
Quote (ferdia @ Nov 2 2022 12:06am)
feel free to give 3 examples


you mentioned zelensky being a good man earlier.

Every now and then this video resurfaces, always makes me laugh

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1587550884711596037?cxt=HHwWioC8ocrHjogsAAAA

This post was edited by ownyaah on Nov 1 2022 03:30pm
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Nov 1 2022 03:33pm
Guess we'll be seeing a lot more of Palasan, these days.

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Nov 1 2022 03:40pm
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Nov 1 2022 03:41pm
Quote (ownyaah @ Nov 1 2022 09:30pm)
you mentioned zelensky being a good man earlier.

Every now and then this video resurfaces, always makes me laugh

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1587550884711596037?cxt=HHwWioC8ocrHjogsAAAA


alot of his humor was like that. he said alot of politically incorrect things and his sketches were ever political and not for the faint hearted. im not a fan of that humor myself either. but my comments are not related to his showbiz career or his dancing ability.

This post was edited by ferdia on Nov 1 2022 03:42pm
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Nov 1 2022 03:52pm
Quote (ferdia @ Nov 2 2022 12:41am)
alot of his humor was like that. he said alot of politically incorrect things and his sketches were ever political and not for the faint hearted. im not a fan of that humor myself either. but my comments are not related to his showbiz career or his dancing ability.


Thing is, it is incredibly inappropriate to vote someone who did such things for presidency whilst being the situation Ukraine was in.

Instead of choosing a representative that understands diplomacy, they picked someone who made a living making fun of the suffering of crimeans&donetsk civilians. For some reason it feels like ukranians don't seem to grasp the situation they are in

This post was edited by ownyaah on Nov 1 2022 03:56pm
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