Quote (Plaguefear @ Jun 3 2020 08:31pm)

Lets ignore the fact that had they held him up and called an ambulance he would likely be alive and not even mention that as an option.
I watched the entire video, how many chest compressions were there?
At no stage did they even attempt to help.
When he was completely unresponsive they STILL never attempted to help.

Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 4 2020 10:41am)

Is negligence (not recognizing that he was about to die) the basis of a murder case?

Quote

The 540 g heart (upper limit of normal for
body length is 510 g; upper limit of normal for body weight is
521 g)1 is contained in an intact pericardial sac. The
epicardial surface is smooth, with modest fat investment. The
coronary arteries are present in a normal distribution, with a
right dominant pattern. Cross sections of the vessels show
multifocal atherosclerosis, with 75% proximal and 75% mid
narrowing of the left anterior descending coronary artery; 75%
proximal narrowing of the 1st diagonal branch of the left
anterior descending coronary artery; 25% proximal narrowing of
the circumflex coronary artery; and 90% proximal narrowing of
the right coronary artery. The myocardium is homogeneous, redbrown,
and firm. The valve leaflets are thin and mobile. The
walls of the left and right ventricles are 1.2 and 0.4 cm thick,
respectively. The endocardium is smooth and glistening. Both
ventricular cavities are mildly dilated. The minimally
atherosclerotic aorta gives rise to three intact and patent arch
vessels. The renal and mesenteric vessels are unremarkable.

Quote (Thor123422 @ Jun 3 2020 07:41pm)

There's also "stopped him from getting aid on his own" and "actively exacerbated the underlying condition". Somebody having a pre-existing condition doesn't mean you can't make the condition worse and have that result in their death.

Might be enough to take it down to some type of manslaughter though. All the news reports are reporting multiple charges from manslaughter to 2nd degree murder, so can they just take the lowest one that sticks?

Quote (Plaguefear @ Jun 3 2020 07:43pm)

At the point where he becomes unresponsive and you sit on him for a few minutes longer and STILL provide no aid, yes.
I will wager if a bouncer had done the exact same thing the charge would be murder and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 3 2020 05:28pm)

Before the officers even restrained him the 911 caller said he was so high he was incoherent, and Floyd repeatedly said "I can't breathe" and exhibited medical distress before being restrained.

There are two competing theories here, one that George Floyd died of homicide inflicted by asphyxiation, one that he experienced heart failure due to natural/drug causes.
And somewhere inbetween there's a degree of culpability based on how much of a factor the restraint actually was in his death and whether it was justified. In the pure homicide narrative, George only died because police choked him and would still be alive and well today otherwise and the entire guilt lies with the officers for unreasonable use of force. In the pure natural causes narrative, George only died because his heart gave out under immense strain and would have happened irrespective of the cop's actions. Trying to reconcile those two competing theories and find the truth between them we have to be guided by the facts and evidence.

And we just got dumped a ton of evidence that establishes George Floyd had basically every extreme comorbidity risk possible of coronavirus, sickle cell anemia, heart disease and multi-substance abuse- and there's no physical signs of trauma at all. And that's on top of evidence indicating possible heart failure prior to being restrained.

And this is a second degree murder case?
the facts are on earth, the legal case is off somewhere in the kuiper belt

Quote (thundercock @ Jun 4 2020 10:46am)

If I go up to someone with a heart condition and scare them enough to cause a heart attack, you're saying that I'm not liable. Good luck convincing a jury of that :)

The 2nd degree murder charge is a tough sell but within reason: https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-overview.html
Obviously the first case doesn't apply here. The interesting one is the felony murder rule which Minnesota has:
https://statelaws.findlaw.com/minnesota-law/minnesota-second-degree-murder.html

Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 3 2020 07:44pm)

they're allowed to present multiple cases at the same time on different charges and let the jury pick the lowest one that sticks, yup.

Quote (Plaguefear @ Jun 3 2020 07:48pm)

Honestly i think the court will find him guilty regardless of the charges, thats just how it is in some cases, if he walks the state and possibly country burns, there is going to be a cost benefit analysis and this cops freedom is not going to tip the scales.

Quote (Plaguefear @ Jun 3 2020 05:48pm)

Honestly i think the court will find him guilty regardless of the charges, thats just how it is in some cases, if he walks the state and possibly country burns, there is going to be a cost benefit analysis and this cops freedom is not going to tip the scales.

Quote (thundercock @ Jun 3 2020 07:46pm)

If I go up to someone with a heart condition and scare them enough to cause a heart attack, you're saying that I'm not liable. Good luck convincing a jury of that :)

Quote

The 2nd degree murder charge is a tough sell but within reason: https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-overview.html
Obviously the first case doesn't apply here. The interesting one is the felony murder rule which Minnesota has:
https://statelaws.findlaw.com/minnesota-law/minnesota-second-degree-murder.html