Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 1 2022 01:12pm)
Whether Russia is a real democracy or not is irrelevant. Just like if China or any other country doesn't fit into our defined standard of what's appropriate politically internally doesn't somehow give us the right to minimize their concerns and infringe and get under their skin on their borders. Taiwan, Ukraine are exactly that.
If they wanted promises that we won't go into their sphere of influence 30 years ago, we do anyways, they warn, we continue to do so until it gets to the point that we have half a dozen countries on their border with American and NATO bases, with US missile systems pointed "defensively" in Russia's direction it's pretty easy to see their frustration. On top of that you have American NGO's sprouting like mushrooms all over in ex-soviet states which often times are just covert ways to buy influence. So then the argument evolved into "everyone is entitled to chose who they ally themselves with" which of course on it's face sounds democratic and fair and all of those wonderful things but is a hypocritical joke when you look at what we did to unfriendly democracies in South America, Iran, etc historically.
We have to live in a world which recognizes that no one country has a monopoly on setting the rules politically, economically, etc. It's not Russia or China spreading their influence in an antagonistic manner all over the globe tbh. Do either of them have military bases next to us? Are either of them trying to bring in missile systems and have standing armies in Mexico or Cuba for "defensive" reasons?
And the bold is kind of the issue at hand, you and many westerners in general have this attitude that other parts of the world should just accept how things ought to be based on what we say because reasons, because democracy, because fill in the blank. Russia is the first big domino to say no. Smaller ones tried i.e. Libya, Iraq and got smacked down but in this case idk what the results will be. It's pretty obvious though that our influence is being pushed back on with rising regional powers like India, SA, south Africa, etc. Who would of thought that the brown world through their inaction is telling us to fuck off with the dictates.
countries left the USSR and gained independence. some of them left the favor of Russia rather quickly, some of them have left much later, and some are still in the favor of Russia. once they do leave russia, through american led coups or simply from electing more liberal leaders (other places have ebbs and flows of a conservative to liberal pendulum just as we do) they're seen as an enemy of Russia. and just as we led a coup in Ukraine, Russia is prone to lead a coup in their country to stop any liberal movements from detaching from the Russian sphere of influence. if they have a liberal govt that is feeling the pressure of Russia who are we to deny them aid, whether it's NATO membership or just aid/intel, because of an informal hand shake 30 years ago made to a country that was on the brink of violent collapse and in fact asking the USA for inaction to facilitate said collapse. we could have moved in and destroyed them but did not due to the threat of MAD during said collapse. they had a broken leg, we allowed them time to heal. and by proxy they basically said leave us be and we wont end the earth or sell nukes to terrorists. yet a single line from an informal agreement is taken as literally as idiotic interpretations of the 2nd amendment claiming we should be able to as private citizens own intercontinental ballistic missiles. just as we moved more than an inch west Russia has violently defended the expansion of western governance across international borders. they're not kittens, they're poisoners, they're assassins, they're run by ex-KGB, and they've carried on it's legacy.
Quote (kusotarre1 @ Nov 1 2022 01:28pm)
Red lines don't require agreement, they are declarations. Did Venezuela agree to the Monroe Doctrine? Did the USSR agree to it during the Cuban missile crisis, done in response to missiles in Turkey?
Of course not. You're just continuing to do what Westerners always do: one rule for me, another for thee.
i'm unilaterally anti-NATO and anti-War. i'm making a logical, not ideological point.
This post was edited by thesnipa on Nov 1 2022 02:04pm