Both their govs are leading them to the slaughter.
While they sit in their towers laughing together.

This is why the US should recalculate it's response. We fueling a proxy war with an opponent who has actual teeth where only elite status quo fueling it. AFAIK average US citizen wants no war with Russia.

If we let Russia roll over Ukraine it is far more likely that we get a NATO war in the future. If they roll over Ukraine they have a border with Poland... and that never ends well.

Let's not pretend the US has not provoked and help set the stage for this mess with Obama era coup, Trump era arms, and Biden era ineptitude. The best way out is through negotiations and last I heard West and Russia haven't been negotiationing at all since early Summer. The other path of escalation and warfare does not have an outcome unless you ready for Fallout 5.

Let's be perfectly clear. The West and Ukraine are open to negotiate. Russia has openly said what amounts to "Agree to all of our terms and we'll come to the table". They won't even start without Crimea and the "independent" zones being assumed to be Russia's, which is a ridiculous starting point.

I also outright disagree that the West has provoked this mess. There was never a formal agreement that NATO wouldn't expand towards Russia, and Russia literally never stopped invading and trying to absorb its neighbors in NATO's direction. The most generous interpretation you can reasonably make is it's about equal, with Russia actively invading its neighbors and NATO supplying arms to them to resist Russia's expansion in our direction.

Nato has pushed so far that NATO has literally arrived at their doorstep in 2/4 places already (west/north). Yet your saying russia is trying to absorb its neighbours and is going westward.

You realise you are completely R-word? Russians are pussies for not going all in on ukraine, after giving away novorossiy due to lennin&khrushchev and then letting ukranians join eu/nato. If putin wasn't a giant pussy he would mobilize 2million man, and attack ukraine in a straight arrow with artillery, destroy every city in west up to lviv and call it a day.

Instead of finishing this quickly, we will have a slow cooking bloodbath with no end in sight. Putin deserves to be executed for his crimes against russian people, and his betrayal since 2014.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Oct 23 2022 06:20pm

I'm not Russian, but if you think I'm stupid I understand why you might make that mistake. Also thanks for the clarity. I knew Russian was a common perjorative but I didn't realize you had to censor it when insulting somebody.

Russians are disgustingly weak people, and your 100% correct with the R-word. Imagine giving away such a massive industrial and strategic naval area, in 1922 and then again in 1954. Then allow those areas, which belong to you, join your enemy. Then your "friend" decides to bomb the shit out of your ethnic people for 8 years straight, and burn them alive in odessa, and ban the russian language/russian political parties.

Like i said, if you weren't dealing with the giga-pussy putin, 20 million ukranians wouldve already left ukraine last 6 months, and rest would be eating artillery for breakfast.

This will still happen no doubt, escalation has just started, but putin is slow, always 5 steps behind reality.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Oct 23 2022 06:26pm

Cmon Thor you are smarter than this and you've been in the geopolitics long enough. The 'war' didn't just start one day with evil Putin rolling into Ukraine. Just like 911 didn't just start one day with terrorists ramming planes into bulidings. These 'bad' people from the Deep States perspective have been very vocal for years about what is provoking them. That being said, doesn't justify what Russia did but it plays into their calculus. Also, Obama backing the coup in 2014, then Hunter taking bribes from Burisma (formerly RU aligned prior to coup), then Trump moving in the heavy weapons.

As for negotiating, point the finger where you like, but it was RU that early on was set to take deals etc, now there posture is likely tit for tat nonsense to respond to Boris initial no negotiation s

This post was edited by RedFromWinter on Oct 23 2022 06:40pm

Russia was not "set to take deals". I think you're smarter than that. Their position the entire time has been "these are my terms, and if you agree to them we have a deal".

The "war" mostly started in 2014 when an election happened and Russia's puppet was ousted.

Yeah there's bad things on both sides, but let's be clear, this is like 80/20 against Russia. They've been the much greater and more obvious aggressor for basically the entire time after they stopped being the soviet union.