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Oct 18 2022 09:17am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Oct 18 2022 11:05am)
I agree with that generally. I would say that confidence in supply is a huge factor. Russia have shown themselves to be unreliable and heads of business will not turn a blind eye to that. I agree that ethics don't drive business, but even objectively Russia has become the supplier of last resort.

It will take them a decade to transition to supplying China/India in the same quantities as they were previously supplying the EU.


This is mainly due to regulatory reasons and the inability for example to get things like shipment insurance because of sanctions and/or regulations. They are only unreliable in the context of that they used energy as leverage to do something we don't like but in actual deliverance of product steadily in non-war times they have been very reliable.

The problem with thinking that Russia has no long term place as an energy source is if you think it out, there's very few other places who can pick up the slack at acceptable/comparable pricing. Sure places like Norway are reliable but their reserves will be quickly depleted, they can't support Europe by themselves. Is Africa reliable? Is the ME reliable? personally I don't think so. Is US-LNG reliable? Yeah sure at a price tag of 6x Russian gas.
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Oct 18 2022 09:19am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 18 2022 10:17am)
This is mainly due to regulatory reasons and the inability for example to get things like shipment insurance because of sanctions and/or regulations. They are only unreliable in the context of that they used energy as leverage to do something we don't like but in actual deliverance of product steadily in non-war times they have been very reliable.

The problem with thinking that Russia has no long term place as an energy source is if you think it out, there's very few other places who can pick up the slack at acceptable/comparable pricing. Sure places like Norway are reliable but their reserves will be quickly depleted, they can't support Europe by themselves. Is Africa reliable? Is the ME reliable? personally I don't think so. Is US-LNG reliable? Yeah sure at a price tag of 6x Russian gas.


The problem here is that Russia has shown themselves to also be unreliable. Russia Russia was positioning itself as a strategic reserve for the entirety of Europe. That position is now toast.. Russia might have a place in the world but no country is going to let themselves be dependent on Russia if they can help it in the future
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Oct 18 2022 09:22am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Oct 18 2022 04:05pm)
I agree with that generally. I would say that confidence in supply is a huge factor. Russia have shown themselves to be unreliable and heads of business will not turn a blind eye to that. I agree that ethics don't drive business, but even objectively Russia has become the supplier of last resort.

It will take them a decade to transition to supplying China/India in the same quantities as they were previously supplying the EU.


I made a small edit to my post above. just mentioning for visibility.

Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Oct 18 2022 04:19pm)
The problem here is that Russia has shown themselves to also be unreliable. Russia Russia was positioning itself as a strategic reserve for the entirety of Europe. That position is now toast.. Russia might have a place in the world but no country is going to let themselves be dependent on Russia if they can help it in the future


This statement is somewhat misleading. how has russia shown themselves as unreliable ? everything they have been doing up to this point has been logical (you dont have to agree with what they are doing to accept it is logical). If you are able to logic-proof russia then it is quite easy to make them reliable. i think reliable is the wrong terminology here.

This post was edited by ferdia on Oct 18 2022 09:25am
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Oct 18 2022 09:24am
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Oct 18 2022 11:19am)
The problem here is that Russia has shown themselves to also be unreliable. Russia Russia was positioning itself as a strategic reserve for the entirety of Europe. That position is now toast.. Russia might have a place in the world but no country is going to let themselves be dependent on Russia if they can help it in the future


In the future, what I think happens is, Europe will go back to Russian gas but this time around they will be much better diversified. Russia will lose the leverage of using energy to impose it's will but they will still remain a sizable supplier. Russia will diversify to the east making up some of these losses, Europe will diversify to LNG/ME/NA.
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Oct 18 2022 09:25am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 18 2022 04:24pm)
In the future, what I think happens is, Europe will go back to Russian gas but this time around they will be much better diversified. Russia will lose the leverage of using energy to impose it's will but they will still remain a sizable supplier. Russia will diversify to the east making up some of these losses, Europe will diversify to LNG/ME/NA.


tend to agree with that.
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Oct 18 2022 09:25am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 18 2022 04:17pm)
This is mainly due to regulatory reasons and the inability for example to get things like shipment insurance because of sanctions and/or regulations. They are only unreliable in the context of that they used energy as leverage to do something we don't like but in actual deliverance of product steadily in non-war times they have been very reliable.

The problem with thinking that Russia has no long term place as an energy source is if you think it out, there's very few other places who can pick up the slack at acceptable/comparable pricing. Sure places like Norway are reliable but their reserves will be quickly depleted, they can't support Europe by themselves. Is Africa reliable? Is the ME reliable? personally I don't think so. Is US-LNG reliable? Yeah sure at a price tag of 6x Russian gas.


Exactly, Putin made Russia's energy supply a direct threat security. Or better say, he delivered on the potential of a threat. By weaponizing energy supply.

By all means the EU could return to the pre-war status quo of getting the majority of its energy from Russia. It would be a laughable mistake.
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Oct 18 2022 09:26am
Quote (ferdia @ Oct 18 2022 04:22pm)
I made a small edit to my post above. just mentioning for visibility.



This statement is somewhat misleading. how has russia shown themselves as unreliable ? everything they have been doing up to this point has been logical (you dont have to agree with what they are doing to accept it is logical). If you are able to logic-proof russia then it is quite easy to make them reliable. i think reliable is the wrong terminology here.


Isn't that glaringly obvious?
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Oct 18 2022 09:27am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 18 Oct 2022 16:31)
Some people think that without the gas supply from Russia that Europeans will somehow die, revolt or end support for Ukraine in order to resume gas supply.

Those same people underestimate the will of EU citizens. No doubt it will be a big test for the EU block, in particular Germany. No matter what the short term outcome, Russia is finished as a long term supplier of energy.
And when the gas station stops selling gas, what will become of it?


Quote (ofthevoid @ 18 Oct 2022 16:55)
I don't think so. People tend to have an exceptionally short memory and are very forgiving when they are personally impacted.

I can guarantee that many business heads across Europe who depended on cheap energy are eagerly waiting for some peace-plan to be announced so they can maybe get cheap Russian gas again. There's no ideological holding out when it comes to money or feeding yourself. Look at how fast Japan became our friend even though we literally nuked them. How long did it take, one generation?

It might not happen this year or 5 years from now but Europe will not say no thanks to much cheaper energy. Personalize this on an individual level, if you go to the store and see two identical brands of yogurt, one costs 1 dollar the other 3 is dollars. Let's say the 1 dollar brand is produced by Nestle which in some way or another damaged rain-forests, palm trees, whatever. Are you going to buy the 3 dollar yogurt instead out of principle? Maybe at first, maybe while you can afford it but vast majority of people will overlook past these type of ethical issues and will buy the cheaper product. The average German citizen given enough time will say give me a $80 euro gas bill even though it's sourced from Russia who attacked Ukraine 10 years ago versus I'll stay on my US-sourced LNG that costs me $350 euro a month. You already see it today with mass protests and we're in the middle of a hot war, so I wouldn't be too sure what happens over the long term.


The big problem is that Europe can't realistically do a u-turn on gas and oil trade with Russia in the short term, even if it wanted to. If we came crawling to Putin begging for gas right now, or in the next couple of months, he would have the proof that he has the leverage on this issue. We would mercilessly get our cheeks clapped and still not get the amounts of gas or oil that would really alleviate our situation. Resuming trade with Russia only makes sense if/when their back is really against the wall, militarily or economically, so that we have leverage of our own to counter theirs.

These short- and medium-term considerations aside, I agree that Europe will one day resume energy trade with Russia. It's just too beneficial for both sides not to. But yeah, since Russia's reputation as a reliable supplier is irrevocably destroyed, we will never get back to the pre-war trade volumes, we will never allow Russia to seize such a large market share ever again.
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Oct 18 2022 09:32am
Melitopol city major in exile posted a list of 175 collaborators (kindergarten employees), announcing punishment (15 years of jail) for those who stay in occupied city.



Source: Ukrainian telegram news channel Bliskavka (Молния/Lightning).

This post was edited by Norlander on Oct 18 2022 09:35am
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Oct 18 2022 09:33am


What majority of fucking monkeys in this thread look like in real life
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