haha, you don't seriously expect me to refute every single mistake in your alternative history of the middle east, where the state of israel only became a thought after the holocaust, where that is somehow more relevant to the state of the region than toppling democratically elected leaders to gain control over oil, or invading countries under demonstrably false pretenses, and where kurds worship crosses?
can you really be ignorant enough to take your whataboutisms seriously and expect others to do the same?!

also, in your desperate attempt to justify your glaring hypocrisy, you missed the part where i never called actually mentally challenged people 'retarded' just ignorant idiots who proudly paraded their low intelligence takes, acting like they were serious arguments - just like you are doing there. and all of them have made plenty use of their ability to stand up for themselves. btw, you still haven't even tried to educate yourself regarding the term 'culture'.

pointing out that you're offensively ignorant is nothing i'm ashamed of. deal with it.

1. the kurds not being christain is a good point. the rest of it is silly. so you've got a pitchers batting average thusfar, good job.

2. calling non-retarded people retarded is the offensive part. calling retarded people retarded is factual, callous but factual. looking at someone who is NOT retarded, and calling them that is offensive to retarded people. Why? oh, idk, maybe because they didnt do anything wrong and cant help their state and making fun of someone by comparing them to a helpless blameless person is cruel. that's like the whole point, how have you not gotten that in the 5 or so times i've walked you through PC language in this ironic dance?

3. as to this: "can you really be ignorant enough to take your whataboutisms seriously and expect others to do the same", i see you and only you coming at me. and another lefty euro agreeing with me. like i said, preach to that choir of one. maybe sauceman5000 will waltz in just in time for an unintelligible solo.

your ad populum fallacies are no adequate replacement for historically correct facts, sorry that this is apparently news to you. israel's existence is not what toppled the mossadeqh regime, not what invaded iraq under demonstrably false pretenses, and it also did not create the power vaccuum that lead to the rise of ISIS - so please don't mistake the lack of disagreement from others regarding your whataboutisms as prove positive of your moronic suggestions.
that's more than the benign and somewhat adorably naive jingoism many conservative americans usually display, that's blatant fact denying and alternative history, which i will call out when i see it, no matter if it's ghot or you. deal with it.

oh dear the fella trying to make the reich work again is lecturing others on alternative timelines

Its almost funny. i said the US failed in iraq, i said they failed in Afghanistan both in arming and the later war, and i said they failed in Syria. your response? "europe didnt do those thing" (smugly).

i know, that's what I said. i said the middle east was a crack whore, and we kicked it repeatedly. it was a fucked up place before we got involved and we've done very little to help it. i said all this. and yet you still have an issue, and it stems from butthurt over me using the word "uncultured". it's as clear as day to anyone reading this.

maybe you just need it in more plain english. "USA did a bad, USA did a few bads. Europe did some bads too. Middle east was bad before the bads, still bad. bad bad bad."

you're the one always trying to pin Europe's woes on the USA exclusively. (ironically while claiming i lack nuance). i'm more than willing to make a pie chart with all of the motivating factors of the conundrum that is the Middle East. what parts are due to the USA, Europe, and even giving agency to the native people there and recognizing how their culture, development, religion, and many other factors play a role. you'd rather just slap a "GWB did it" sticker on the whole thing, while claiming i'm running from facts. i'm anti GWB, anti iraq war, anti syrian war, anti afghan war, and especially anti military spending. none of this matters to you tho, why? because i said "uncultured" and expressed some undeserved sense of american superiority in your head.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Oct 10 2019 12:50pm

Children die today because of Trump.

yeah right, let's just pretend like you did not suggest that the main problem is the creation of israel, and ignorantly suggested it was only established because of the holocaust in order to portray germany and britain as the main foreign culprits for middle eastern problems. let's just pretend you did not suggest that the cia's actions had nothing to do with america, dishonestly pretending the expressed will of every citizen is required to call that out as an american action, and let's also pretend you did not make borderline racist remarks, blaming the 'cultures' of the middle east for their misery - all to deflect from and downplaying the effect of american imperialism.

slowly backpedaling on that narrative and suggesting you always accepted historical facts, while strawmanning and fantasising about my posts, despite the clear arguments i made about where your talking points simply fall short, will not make that disappear. it's funny that you insist on me being irrationally triggered by you using the word 'uncultured' to describe the whole region, when i unmistakenly explained to you that the only thing i find offensive about your posts in this topic is the violent ignorance they are based on. it is pretty clear that you only commented on my posts to disagree, and then got triggered when i called you out for the stupid shit you had to claim in order to do so...

Legit stopped here. what i said was that was the largest problem. aka the largest slice of the pie.

try reading better.

i said most of the modern problems stem from that, and i stand by that. israel in the middle east has been an issue for decades that has bred instability in the region. it's caused different factions in Islam to rise and fall, different govts to fund terrorist organizations to combat Israel, and Israel and the USA's allegiance, as well as Israel's allegiance with Europe has bred a lot of anger towards the west.

the US war in iraq is another large slice, but tempered by many factors. the oppressive regime of Sadaam, sadaam going into Kuwait. the afghans attacking us on 9-11. totalitarian and oppresive regimes in other regions that are state sponsors of terrorism. and above all the Saudi and Iranian actions in the region bereft of US involvement that further destabilize areas.

Israel stands above all else because it is a standalone event as far as the region is concerned. a bunch of jews were persecuted a thousand miles away and the Britains carved out land for them. it doesnt have the entangled web of motivations like the above cluster fuck that is the Iraq-Afghan-Syria conflict.


again, i seek to put actual numbers of a sort to these kinds of at fault questions. if it's 25% the US's fault or 90% the US's fault makes zero difference to me. i hate USA war mongering. if anything i'd be happy to blame us for more than we're responsible for. the same cant be said for an anti american zealot such as yourself.


side question, are you honestly proud of all the "backpedaling" "ignorance" "narrative" "strawmanning" etc phrases you shoehorn into every post? reading your posts for content is a chore, its 90% fluff. youre worse than a bag of Lays chips.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Oct 10 2019 02:20pm

be both know you didn't stop there, but humour me, by what metric, by what logic is the creation of israel a larger problem for the current situation in the middle east right now than for example the coup against mossadeqh or the invasion of iraq under false pretenses?



'legit stopped there' - *also bitches about the term 'backpedaling', which i didn't even use until later in the same post

pants on fire...

This post was edited by fender on Oct 10 2019 02:26pm

firstly, i did stop there. then i re-read my own post you were referencing, realized the language wasn't perfectly clear, and expanded what i meant. then after that (you can see ofc there's an edit and you have both halves of the post) i read the last sentence and saw it started with like the worst sentence for content i've read all day. you sounds like a pretentious teenager trying to use SAT words. it comes off as desperate and ignorant, when im sure you hope it sounds intelligent. as ive done for many non-native speakers i try to at least point out when people sound "off". ive done this a lot for you, your inability to listen shows pride, butthurt, or both. take my advice, you'll sound like a smarter person instead of a kid who just learned 10 new words.

secondly, i explained myself i think in that post. Israel is a fairly pure cause and effect and due to externalized (from the middle eastern perspective) issues. aka, war in europe, europeans plant europeans in the Middle east. whereas Iraq is a complicated mess of motivations, many of which are internalized in the middle east. Gulf war 1 played a factor, treatment of the Kurds played a factor, denial of UN inspection teams in certain areas played a factor, the attack on 9-11 played a factor, allegiance with Israel played a factor, etc.

in short, israel is a fairly pure cause and effect chain that leads to a LOT of problems in the middle east. whereas Iraq-afghanistan-syria comparatively have caused more damage across the globe than Israel in the last 2 decades, but are a complicated mess of motivations (aka not ALL the USA's fault). this is operating under the premise of USA vs Europe to answer "who's to blame". which is in itself fairly reductionist. the middle east it a 100 faceted diamond, some large faced some only slivers. the USA surely has it's share of the blame. as i've said many times now i'm staunchly anti-interventionist. were i president on 9-11 i'd have canceled all OPEC orders until they coughed up the cowards and if not made Venezuala the new super power in the field. let the fuckers tear themselves apart.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Oct 10 2019 02:37pm