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Mar 18 2019 02:35am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 18 Mar 2019 07:15)
unfortunately, this overwhelming scientific consensus has a bad track record:
https://www.apnews.com/bd45c372caf118ec99964ea547880cd0

-----

U.N. Predicts Disaster if Global Warming Not Checked
June 30, 1989

"A senior U.N. environmental official says entire nations could be wiped off the face of the Earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000.
Coastal flooding and crop failures would create an exodus of ″eco- refugees,′ ′ threatening political chaos, said Noel Brown, director of the New York office of the U.N. Environment Program, or UNEP.

He said governments have a 10-year window of opportunity to solve the greenhouse effect before it goes beyond human control."


"He said even the most conservative scientists ″already tell us there’s nothing we can do now to stop a ... change″ of about 3 degrees."

-----

so back in 1989, the director of the UN Environment Program said that the global warming trends would become irreversible by the year 2000, and that even the most conservative scientists agree that even radical action could not stop an increase in global temperatures of about 3 degrees.

no meaningful action was taken in 89 or 90, the global population has grown dramatically since then, consumption levels and emissions have risen dramatically. the year 2000 has passed, and apparently the irreversible tipping points were not only not triggered by then, they seemingly havent been triggered yet by now, the year 2019, either if we were to believe the current warnings about how "immediate and large-scale action is necessary to prevent crossing tipping points".

back in 89, the chief UN environmental scientists were warning that an increase in the global temperature by about 3 degrees would be inevitable according to even the most conservative scientists, yet 27 years later, in 2016, the UN-backed Paris climate accord operates under the assumption that the world can contain global warming to 2 or even 1.5 degrees if only enough money is thrown at the problem by the industrialized countries.

-----

now, I wouldnt entirely rule out the possibility that the scientists were alarmistic back in 1989 and blowing things out of proportion in an attempt to coerce the world to act immediately, while they are honest and telling the pure truth right now, 30 years later. but how likely is that?

I hope I'll not be put to the stake for blasphemy for questioning the "overwhelming scientific consensus" (when it comes to the urgency of the problem, not its mere existence) when similar overwhelming consensuses have been so farcically wrong in the past.


funny how you try so hard to appear 'reasonable and fact based', but your dishonesty is so blatantly obvious: your whole premise is based on one prediction by the then-director of the ny office of the un environment program (unep) - but in your post he magically turned into multiple "chief un environmental scientists", comparable to the overwhelming scientific consensus of today - more than that even: he's representative of several alleged "overwhelming consensuses" of the past... holy shit, if only he had known back then how big of a deal he apparently was...

sorry, but that little propaganda trick of yours has been tried and debunked countless times - literally. you find 'sceptics' making the exact same 'arguments' regarding that exact same prediction all over the internet - even though most at least try not to lie about the easily refutable stuff, but unsurprisingly you had to go full r...

take one prediction that you simplistically misrepresent as entirely wrong (ofc completely ignoring the changes and actions we DID make since 1989), baselessly claim its exact positions were the 'overwhelming consensus' back then to allow comparisons to the ACTUAL consensus that exists today, and without ANY nuance or fair analysis therefore dismiss today's science entirely (not without trying to be cute by putting in a token disclaimer: 'sure, still COULD be true - i'm totally open minded, but what are the chances?', implying they are negligible). climate change 'sceptics' propaganda 101, tested and approved by (paid and unpaid) koch stooges world wide...


here's a cute little reply i found to one of the above mentioned copy paste climate 'sceptics' talking points:

Code
First, because Person A was wrong in 1989, does not mean that the expert scientific consensus in 2018 is also wrong–even if “Person A” is described as a “senior environmental official.”

Second, the extent to which “Person A” was wrong is still unclear. To assess that, one must disentangle the concepts of “commitment” and “realization.” Illustratively, a smoker may be “committed” to lung cancer by mutation of lung cells years before the cancer grows enough for diagnosis, and the disease is “realized”.

So, in the case of “Person A”–Noel Brown–the period for commitment may indeed be too short, while the description of the consequences of realization may be entirely accurate. As indeed they appear to be, given that they are logically straightforward consequences of sea-level rise–which is, by the way, directly measured and therefore clearly occurring today.




to further debunk your painfully wrong and dishonest narrative, and to give you some interesting reading material concerning the ACTUAL science, in case you are genuinely open to information that doesn't fit into your appeaser narrative:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/07/26/heartlands-6-reasons-to-be-a-climate-change-skeptic-are-six-demonstrable-lies/#451d21336189

https://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-models-intermediate.htm

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/jun/25/30-years-later-deniers-are-still-lying-about-hansens-amazing-global-warming-prediction

https://www.campaigncc.org/sceptics

fascinating insight, at least he got paid for his hackery: https://theintercept.com/2017/04/28/how-a-professional-climate-change-denier-discovered-the-lies-and-decided-to-fight-for-science/

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/oct/22/trump-thinks-scientists-are-split-on-climate-change-so-do-most-americans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_conspiracy_theory

This post was edited by fender on Mar 18 2019 02:38am
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Mar 18 2019 04:51am
fender triggered into oblivion by the simple fact that these predictions, as i said, are almost impossible to make

we were also supposed to be running out of oil already, every tree in germany was supposed to be gone and well known weather/climate experts said that we wouldnt have cold winters with snow anymore by now

and lets not forget the next ice age that was incoming back in the 70

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.welt.de/wissenschaft/umwelt/article5489379/Als-uns-vor-30-Jahren-eine-neue-Eiszeit-drohte.html

it really hurts to see the likes of fender trying to use science as an argument, when he is most clueless and anti science person in this entire forum
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Mar 18 2019 04:56am
Quote (ampoo @ 18 Mar 2019 11:51)
fender triggered into oblivion by the simple fact that these predictions, as i said, are almost impossible to make

we were also supposed to be running out of oil already, every tree in germany was supposed to be gone and well known weather/climate experts said that we wouldnt have cold winters with snow anymore by now

and lets not forget the next ice age that was incoming back in the 70

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.welt.de/wissenschaft/umwelt/article5489379/Als-uns-vor-30-Jahren-eine-neue-Eiszeit-drohte.html

it really hurts to see the likes of fender trying to use science as an argument, when he is most clueless and anti science person in this entire forum


more climate sceptics fake news straight out of the propaganda booklet.

fully debunked here: https://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s-intermediate.htm

you guys fully embrace your anti-intellectualism and science denial, don't you?
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Mar 18 2019 07:35am
Quote (fender @ 18 Mar 2019 11:56)
more climate sceptics fake news straight out of the propaganda booklet.

fully debunked here: https://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s-intermediate.htm

you guys fully embrace your anti-intellectualism and science denial, don't you?


i posted a neutral source, one of many available, you bring me a website with that retarded statement at the top, which is anti scientific and nothing short of propaganda

the word skeptic in that context is already ridiculous

if asking questions is already anti-intellectualism and science denial then you clearly dont understand the concept
with your thinking we would still be in the middle ages and people like einstein should never have dared to question the absolute truth of newtons laws

clearly you have nothing to do with science as you cant even comprehend the most basic logic, mathematics, physics, not to mention the terms we use

so i recommend you let actually educated people do the thinking and stop infesting serious science with your retarded ideology

aside from that i still wait for your proof that i outright deny the possibility of man made climate change or that i do not support efforts to protect the environment

p.s: but i guess that will come when you provide proof that conservatives, who dare to criticize the backward ideology of islam, are terrorist supporters

This post was edited by ampoo on Mar 18 2019 07:37am
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Mar 18 2019 07:43am
Quote (fender @ 18 Mar 2019 04:35)
funny how you try so hard to appear 'reasonable and fact based', but your dishonesty is so blatantly obvious: your whole premise is based on one prediction by the then-director of the ny office of the un environment program (unep) - but in your post he magically turned into multiple "chief un environmental scientists", comparable to the overwhelming scientific consensus of today - more than that even: he's representative of several alleged "overwhelming consensuses" of the past... holy shit, if only he had known back then how big of a deal he apparently was...

sorry, but that little propaganda trick of yours has been tried and debunked countless times - literally. you find 'sceptics' making the exact same 'arguments' regarding that exact same prediction all over the internet - even though most at least try not to lie about the easily refutable stuff, but unsurprisingly you had to go full r...

take one prediction that you simplistically misrepresent as entirely wrong (ofc completely ignoring the changes and actions we DID make since 1989), baselessly claim its exact positions were the 'overwhelming consensus' back then to allow comparisons to the ACTUAL consensus that exists today, and without ANY nuance or fair analysis therefore dismiss today's science entirely (not without trying to be cute by putting in a token disclaimer: 'sure, still COULD be true - i'm totally open minded, but what are the chances?', implying they are negligible). climate change 'sceptics' propaganda 101, tested and approved by (paid and unpaid) koch stooges world wide...


here's a cute little reply i found to one of the above mentioned copy paste climate 'sceptics' talking points:

Code
First, because Person A was wrong in 1989, does not mean that the expert scientific consensus in 2018 is also wrong–even if “Person A” is described as a “senior environmental official.”

Second, the extent to which “Person A” was wrong is still unclear. To assess that, one must disentangle the concepts of “commitment” and “realization.” Illustratively, a smoker may be “committed” to lung cancer by mutation of lung cells years before the cancer grows enough for diagnosis, and the disease is “realized”.

So, in the case of “Person A”–Noel Brown–the period for commitment may indeed be too short, while the description of the consequences of realization may be entirely accurate. As indeed they appear to be, given that they are logically straightforward consequences of sea-level rise–which is, by the way, directly measured and therefore clearly occurring today.




to further debunk your painfully wrong and dishonest narrative, and to give you some interesting reading material concerning the ACTUAL science, in case you are genuinely open to information that doesn't fit into your appeaser narrative:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/07/26/heartlands-6-reasons-to-be-a-climate-change-skeptic-are-six-demonstrable-lies/#451d21336189

https://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-models-intermediate.htm

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/jun/25/30-years-later-deniers-are-still-lying-about-hansens-amazing-global-warming-prediction

https://www.campaigncc.org/sceptics

fascinating insight, at least he got paid for his hackery: https://theintercept.com/2017/04/28/how-a-professional-climate-change-denier-discovered-the-lies-and-decided-to-fight-for-science/

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/oct/22/trump-thinks-scientists-are-split-on-climate-change-so-do-most-americans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_conspiracy_theory



fender aka heinrich von goebbels writes a rage essay denying reality (no nation or land mass wiped off the face of the earth in 2000 despite his hatred for Israel and USA) then accuses everyone else as deniers when hes the one who denies elections/math/physics/geology and his history

e: reported, btw

This post was edited by excellence on Mar 18 2019 07:45am
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Mar 18 2019 08:23am
Quote (ampoo @ 18 Mar 2019 14:35)
i posted a neutral source, one of many available, you bring me a website with that retarded statement at the top, which is anti scientific and nothing short of propaganda

the word skeptic in that context is already ridiculous

if asking questions is already anti-intellectualism and science denial then you clearly dont understand the concept
with your thinking we would still be in the middle ages and people like einstein should never have dared to question the absolute truth of newtons laws

clearly you have nothing to do with science as you cant even comprehend the most basic logic, mathematics, physics, not to mention the terms we use

so i recommend you let actually educated people do the thinking and stop infesting serious science with your retarded ideology

aside from that i still wait for your proof that i outright deny the possibility of man made climate change or that i do not support efforts to protect the environment

p.s: but i guess that will come when you provide proof that conservatives, who dare to criticize the backward ideology of islam, are terrorist supporters


your 'neutral source' makes a specific claim, and that premise the whole article is based on is DEMONSTRABLY FALSE. there was no majority, let alone overwhelming consensus in the scientific community about global cooling (or even a new ice age) in the 70s - that's pure fiction based on cherry picking ( https://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s-intermediate.htm clearly shows that the majority of peer reviewed scientific papers in the 70s predicted warming not cooling, utterly destroying your retarded 'the next ice age that was incoming back in the 70' talking point), in order to discredit the overwhelming scientific consensus of today.

you're literally spreading climate change denier propaganda. 100% dishonest and wrong. the only question here is: why? why do you hate science and facts so much, why do you act like the data about global warming, rising sea levels, increased severe weather phenomena is irrelevant and leaves us plenty of time for your ridiculous anti-intellectualism? why are you doing what fossil fuel companies paid billions for over the last decades for free? you're not better than flat-earthers or anti-vaxers or people who still won't believe smoking causes cancer...
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Mar 18 2019 09:54am
Quote (fender @ 18 Mar 2019 15:23)
your 'neutral source' makes a specific claim, and that premise the whole article is based on is DEMONSTRABLY FALSE. there was no majority, let alone overwhelming consensus in the scientific community about global cooling (or even a new ice age) in the 70s - that's pure fiction based on cherry picking ( https://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s-intermediate.htm clearly shows that the majority of peer reviewed scientific papers in the 70s predicted warming not cooling, utterly destroying your retarded 'the next ice age that was incoming back in the 70' talking point), in order to discredit the overwhelming scientific consensus of today.

you're literally spreading climate change denier propaganda. 100% dishonest and wrong. the only question here is: why? why do you hate science and facts so much, why do you act like the data about global warming, rising sea levels, increased severe weather phenomena is irrelevant and leaves us plenty of time for your ridiculous anti-intellectualism? why are you doing what fossil fuel companies paid billions for over the last decades for free? you're not better than flat-earthers or anti-vaxers or people who still won't believe smoking causes cancer...


where am i spreading climate change denier propaganda? you are talking like a muslim, when somebody dares to question the quran

i am not 100% dishonest or wrong anywhere, i am asking unsolved questions
that statement doesnt even make sense

why would i hate science? thats my daily bread and butter

i never acted as if any data would irrelevant, learn to read, however i do not always share the conclusion
increased severe weather phenomena are a subject of debate btw, when it comes to hurricanes for example, and not a fact
you are so uneducated, that you dont even know what that is

why are you 24/7 spinning fossil fuel conspiracy theories?

i can argue on the same level and say that you act like a poor mans greta while spreading climate panic so the renewable energy industry can sell solar panels

or in short, all you can do is making retarded accusations, unfounded, without proof and simply false
i am just gonna ignore the insults by comparing me to complete idiots, thats just a pathetic attempt to discredit legit questions
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Mar 18 2019 09:56am
All I have to say is, I hope that both the Republican and Democratic party will put someone forward with at least a basic level of competence. Let's try to learn from 2016 and never make the same mistakes again.
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Mar 18 2019 10:17am
Quote (ampoo @ 18 Mar 2019 16:54)
where am i spreading climate change denier propaganda? you are talking like a muslim, when somebody dares to question the quran

i am not 100% dishonest or wrong anywhere, i am asking unsolved questions
that statement doesnt even make sense

why would i hate science? thats my daily bread and butter

i never acted as if any data would irrelevant, learn to read, however i do not always share the conclusion
increased severe weather phenomena are a subject of debate btw, when it comes to hurricanes for example, and not a fact
you are so uneducated, that you dont even know what that is

why are you 24/7 spinning fossil fuel conspiracy theories?

i can argue on the same level and say that you act like a poor mans greta while spreading climate panic so the renewable energy industry can sell solar panels

or in short, all you can do is making retarded accusations, unfounded, without proof and simply false
i am just gonna ignore the insults by comparing me to complete idiots, thats just a pathetic attempt to discredit legit questions


you pretended that a majority of climate scientists in the 70s predicted a coming ice age - a very popular climate change denier talking point that is simply not true as proven by the source i provided - how can you even contest that? #alternative facts?!

you repeatedly try to label the well documented facts about the fossil fuel industry's attempts to undermine climate science and keep the public misinformed 'conspiracy theories', which is hilariously ironic considering you're the one uncritically accepting and regurgitating their actual propaganda.

and again, your 'i am just asking unsolved questions' shtick has long been exposed. someone who is so obviously trying to undermine and outright reject science based on the shocking insight that not every prediction is 100% accurate, someone quoting a cherry picked article headline in order to discredit a whole scientific field, can not claim healthy scepticism and an open mind. you're a full-blown hack and climate change appeaser. what you're doing is textbook science denier propaganda...
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Mar 18 2019 10:20am
Quote (Leevee @ 18 Mar 2019 16:56)
All I have to say is, I hope that both the Republican and Democratic party will put someone forward with at least a basic level of competence. Let's try to learn from 2016 and never make the same mistakes again.


nice dream, but not gonna happen :p
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