d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Russia / Ukraine
Prev11381391401411424494Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 23,843
Joined: Dec 20 2006
Gold: 80,771.69
Mar 9 2022 01:24pm
they were bribed into joining nato because they love money & hence hate russia, it's called lobbying:

Member
Posts: 26,957
Joined: Dec 21 2007
Gold: 14,569.69
Mar 9 2022 01:25pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Mar 8 2022 10:22pm)
Every liberal in power in the country has been shoving that shit down our throats for the past few years. Its not a party of milquetoast conciliatory moderates trying not to offend anyone, its been a nonstop barrage of authoritarian mandates, conspiracy theories and social crusading. All republicans have to do for messaging right now is tell people they oppose what liberals are doing, because liberals are doing so much wrong. Tucker Carlson segments are basically just clip shows of the latest overreach. They don't have to be proactive and come up with their own policy messaging. The left has defined itself as the party that will break down your door, come into your house and start barking orders at you at gunpoint. Rather literally, for journalists and opposition politicians.


TUCKER CARLSON /end
Member
Posts: 33,686
Joined: May 9 2009
Gold: 3.33
Mar 9 2022 01:25pm
Today's news roundup:

Russia admits that conscripts were sent to Ukraine 'by mistake', even though Putin explicitly promised they wouldn't be: https://t.me/zvezdanews/71894 . Presumably, they took a lot of conscript casualties so couldn't hide it any longer. It also indicates Russia didn't have enough troops for a full scale invasion and explains morale issues

Russian forces are attempting to get to Kyiv from the West - South West now, as well as the North West and East. They've made gains in the North West and now control Bucha and most of Irpin. Attempts to encircle Kyiv from the East are proving difficult as they haven't taken Sumy or the nearby towns to the West, thus leaving their supply lines stretched and prone to sabotage

More airstrikes are happening near Sumy as of yesterday, most likely to lay the grounds for infantry to move in on the city. Taking Sumy would be important to establish safe supply lines into Kyiv from the East

Zaporizhya is being targeted in the move northwards, but Russia don't have enough troops to take it yet. They've been repulsed so far but 3 BTG are heading there to presumably siege the city

No success for Russia in the last few days in Mykolaiv, Kharkiv or Chernihiv

Member
Posts: 26,957
Joined: Dec 21 2007
Gold: 14,569.69
Mar 9 2022 01:28pm
Quote (ferdia @ Mar 9 2022 11:19am)
yes completely agree. but my point is to look at it from the enemies standpoint re: "pretext" for war.


so if you are the US and CAN wants to become communist. we have right to invade them? because its uncomfortable?
Member
Posts: 51,668
Joined: Jan 19 2007
Gold: 30,669.00
Warn: 10%
Mar 9 2022 01:30pm
Quote (Sioux @ Mar 9 2022 07:22pm)
Look at it from the countries who joined nato's standpoint. They're neighbors with a dictator who's down to invade neighboring countries to try and restore the USSRs borders. Joining NATO ensures a future for your country in the face of potential Russian aggression.

If putin didn't want NATO to expand, he should have put down his toys and integrated Russia into the rest of Europe instead of playing Stalin.


the dictator is trying to maintain his borders, not restore his borders. he is NOW attempting to restore his borders. its a fine point but it is different from simply invading in order to expand.

Quote (theCrossbones @ Mar 9 2022 07:28pm)
so if you are the US and CAN wants to become communist. we have right to invade them? because its uncomfortable?


if canada became communist and started dumping missiles all over the border with america, for sure america would stop them. they would do everything possible, before regrettfully invading. this is my opinion. its not a matter of right or wrong its a matter of a country's security concerns.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 9 2022 01:44pm
Member
Posts: 26,345
Joined: Aug 11 2013
Gold: 14,945.00
Mar 9 2022 01:37pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 9 2022 02:14pm)
Most of these countries were not whipped or bribed into joining NATO by the West, they were doing it out of their own volition. Heck, these countries were desperate to join NATO as soon as possible because they absolutely do not want to have to live under Russian rule ever again.


Bribed is possibly the wrong word but what happened is a lot of economic investment/loans/inclusion into various things are tied together. In the 1990s and later on in the early 2000's many of those eastern and central European countries were thirsty as fuck for any sort of investment and job creation and most of that money would be coming from the west, not the crumbled soviet east. Joining the EU and NATO as well, provided the economic carrot that tbh no one really wanted to turn down. If I'm an average Estonian, it's not necessarily that I feared Russia in 2004 but if NATO is looking to spend 5 billion dollars to build bases, house their soldiers here, spend more money here in my community I'd be all for it because ultimately it stimulates my economy, raises my standard of living, allows me to spend a week in Greece on holiday, etc. That's why all those ex-soviet states rushed at that opportunity meanwhile the much richer Finns and Swedes to this day are kind of on the fence about joining.

I don't know what happened in the smoky back room discussions that led to many of these countries to join NATO but as a sidebar look at the pressure that is being applied right now to countries like Hungary & Poland that are not on the same page when it comes to issues like immigration and social issues like lgbtqbbq+ rights. It's hard for me to believe that the enticement of economic investment wasn't used as some bargaining chip.
Member
Posts: 34,305
Joined: Jul 2 2007
Gold: 222.37
Mar 9 2022 02:09pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 9 2022 01:41pm)
A credible pretense could have undermined Western unity and blunted the sanctions. They were able to pull it off in 2014, when they got away with a blatant violation of a country's sovereignty fairly cheap and only had to pay a very mild economic and diplomatic price for their aggression. This time, it's almost as if they didn't even try to mitigate the consequences.


Crimea in 2014 had a very easy pretext. Ukraine was in the midst of a low grade civil war, Crimea was majority Russian, and Russians wanted to be ruled by Russia.

The pretext here was that the Donbass required autonomy, but Putin clearly didn't want to stop at just the Donbass, so the pretense quickly fell apart.
Member
Posts: 57,901
Joined: Dec 3 2008
Gold: 285.00
Mar 9 2022 04:38pm
Quote (dro94 @ Mar 9 2022 02:25pm)
Today's news roundup:

Russia admits that conscripts were sent to Ukraine 'by mistake', even though Putin explicitly promised they wouldn't be: https://t.me/zvezdanews/71894 . Presumably, they took a lot of conscript casualties so couldn't hide it any longer. It also indicates Russia didn't have enough troops for a full scale invasion and explains morale issues

Russian forces are attempting to get to Kyiv from the West - South West now, as well as the North West and East. They've made gains in the North West and now control Bucha and most of Irpin. Attempts to encircle Kyiv from the East are proving difficult as they haven't taken Sumy or the nearby towns to the West, thus leaving their supply lines stretched and prone to sabotage

More airstrikes are happening near Sumy as of yesterday, most likely to lay the grounds for infantry to move in on the city. Taking Sumy would be important to establish safe supply lines into Kyiv from the East

Zaporizhya is being targeted in the move northwards, but Russia don't have enough troops to take it yet. They've been repulsed so far but 3 BTG are heading there to presumably siege the city

No success for Russia in the last few days in Mykolaiv, Kharkiv or Chernihiv


One of their top generals and Spetznaz commanders had his brains blown out the other day. Was a good shot. About 20k American veterans on the ground in Ukraine defending democracy.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Mar 9 2022 02:37pm)
Bribed is possibly the wrong word but what happened is a lot of economic investment/loans/inclusion into various things are tied together. In the 1990s and later on in the early 2000's many of those eastern and central European countries were thirsty as fuck for any sort of investment and job creation and most of that money would be coming from the west, not the crumbled soviet east. Joining the EU and NATO as well, provided the economic carrot that tbh no one really wanted to turn down. If I'm an average Estonian, it's not necessarily that I feared Russia in 2004 but if NATO is looking to spend 5 billion dollars to build bases, house their soldiers here, spend more money here in my community I'd be all for it because ultimately it stimulates my economy, raises my standard of living, allows me to spend a week in Greece on holiday, etc. That's why all those ex-soviet states rushed at that opportunity meanwhile the much richer Finns and Swedes to this day are kind of on the fence about joining.

I don't know what happened in the smoky back room discussions that led to many of these countries to join NATO but as a sidebar look at the pressure that is being applied right now to countries like Hungary & Poland that are not on the same page when it comes to issues like immigration and social issues like lgbtqbbq+ rights. It's hard for me to believe that the enticement of economic investment wasn't used as some bargaining chip.


And now the freedom of the Baltic states is at risk and the only thing keeping them safe is their alliance with Western powers.

That is why Finland is beating down the door right now lol.

This post was edited by Skinned on Mar 9 2022 04:40pm
Member
Posts: 52,044
Joined: Jan 3 2009
Gold: 8,933.00
Mar 9 2022 04:41pm
Quote (Skinned @ Mar 9 2022 04:38pm)
One of their top generals and Spetznaz commanders had his brains blown out the other day. Was a good shot. About 20k American veterans on the ground in Ukraine defending democracy.


Heard there's a brigade of Canadian volunteers as well.
Member
Posts: 6,769
Joined: Mar 21 2018
Gold: 14,949.00
Mar 9 2022 05:08pm
Quote (Santara @ 9 Mar 2022 16:41)
Heard there's a brigade of Canadian volunteers as well.



“Oh sorry”
*proceeds to blow a terrorist Russian’s head clean off with a 50 cal after lobbing a maple syrup grenade*
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev11381391401411424494Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll