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Sep 30 2022 12:11pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Sep 30 2022 12:10pm)
>we escalate
>they escalate
>we escalate
>they escalate
>we escalate this time surely they will stop and surrender
>reality: they escalate further


russia didn't have to invade ukraine... twice now?
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Sep 30 2022 12:12pm
Quote (chopstickz777 @ Sep 30 2022 01:26pm)
Putin: the West's claims to world domination have been shattered more than once by the courage of our soldiers. Any agreements are violated unilaterally. Solid deceit and triple standards designed for fools. Russia is a thousand-year-old country-civilization that will not live by rigged rules. It was the West that trampled on the principle of the inviolability of borders, and now it decides who has the right to self-determination and who is "not worthy" of it.

Putin: The West does not and never had the moral right to stutter about freedoms and democracy. They divide the world into their vassals and everyone else who, according to the plan of the Western racists, should join the list of "barbarians" and "savages". The Western elites are what they were, and have remained so - colonialist. We have never accepted and will never accept this political racism. What, if not racism, is Russophobia spreading in the world?

Putin: We are proud that in the 20th century it was our country that opened the anti-colonial movement.

Putin: The United States, together with the British, turned German cities into ruins, and this was done defiantly, without any need, in order to intimidate both our country and the whole world. Until now, the United States has actually occupied Germany, Japan, South Korea, and at the same time cynically calls them equal allies. Although it is known that their leaders are being followed, they install tracking devices not only in official, but also in private premises. The development of biological weapons, experiments on living people, they call noble medical research.

Putin: The goal of the United States is the deindustrialization of Europe, and European elites understand this. This is not even servility, but a direct betrayal of their peoples. The Anglo-Saxons turned to sabotage by organizing explosions on the Nord Stream pipelines.

Putin: by starting a sanctions blitzkrieg against the Russian Federation, the West believed that it could “build” the whole world on its own command. But such a prospect excites only political masochists and fans of other non-traditional forms of international relations. People cannot be accumulated with printed dollars and euros, and inflated, virtual capitalization cannot be heated at home. You can not feed people with papers.

Putin: there is every reason to believe that the West is not going to look for a constructive way out of the food and energy crisis. There are fears that they are ready to use other recipes that are familiar to them. The profits from World War II allowed the United States to impose the power of the dollar on the planet, and the imminent crisis of the 80s was overcome by appropriating the legacy and resources of the Soviet Union. Now they need at all costs to break Russia and other states that choose a sovereign course of development.

Putin: The West denies moral standards, religion, family. Do we really want Russia to have “parent number one, two, three” instead of “mom and dad” and that perversions that lead to degradation and extinction are imposed on children in schools, supposedly there are some genders, except for women and men? For us, this is unacceptable.

Putin: we have many like-minded people all over the world, and we see their support. A liberation movement against unipolar hegemony is developing all over the world. Today we are fighting to make dictatorship and despotism forever a thing of the past. A policy built on the exclusivity of someone and the suppression of other cultures and peoples is criminal. We must turn this shameful page. The collapse of Western hegemony that has begun is irreversible. It won't be like before.

Putin: The battlefield is for our people, for great historical Russia. We need the consolidation of the whole society. Our values ​​are humanity, mercy and compassion. As Ivan Ilyin said, "I believe in the spiritual forces of the Russian people, their spirit is my spirit, their fate is my destiny, their suffering is my sorrow, their flourishing is my joy."



Well there it is, folks. This is the end of the post-ww2 unipolar US hegemony over the entire planet, which it has spent the past 80 years ruthlessly abusing for self-gain and destroying the lives of millions of people in the process, and the birth of a new multi-polar world where the rights of individual nations will be respected, a world where international law will not merely be a token that is abused by the most powerful.

Those who are in power in the west today do not want to accept this and want to maintain this former hegemony. However, it is not and will not be accepted by a majority of the worlds countries or population. All they can do now to try to stop it is start a nuclear war - after the proxy war in Ukraine inevitably ends in Russia's favor.

Those whom are in power here in America, and in Europe, are little more than pathetic cowards whom want to prevent the birth of a new world. They will not succeed.


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Sep 30 2022 12:19pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Sep 30 2022 02:11pm)
russia didn't have to invade ukraine... twice now?


No they didn't but I operate on what is versus what should be.

It'd be very cool and all if they never invaded or if pro-western Ukrainians didn't overthrow that other guy so the east didn't feel slighted but that's history now.

Ukraine being a line in the sand for Russia has been known for over a decade now, and they repeated it many times. If we know that to be true what do you think is the natural consequence of pushing and insisting on them joining NATO? It's war and further escalation and at this point its either full out war or nukes.

I'd rather not gamble and assume they will just back down and publicly be humiliated when all we've seen is tit-for-tat escalations not backing down.
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Sep 30 2022 12:23pm
Quote (Hamsterbaby @ 30 Sep 2022 20:01)
Maybe ofthevoid will reply you.
You are too emotionally vested in this war to be pragmatic about this entire situation. Which I think I can understand based on my conversation with you since April.


There are very bad things going on in Ukraine.
Russians torture Ukrainians, murder many of them, kidnap them, take their ids and send to some, usually freezing, remote locations deep in Russia. starve them, terroristic bombard their cities, forcefully mobilize them into their own army or otherwise make them work for occupants.
All of this in Europe, next to EU and NATO borders.
These are terrible things, all the decent people shouldnt accept it.
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Sep 30 2022 12:27pm
Quote (Ironfister @ Sep 30 2022 12:18pm)
You cant always run away and hide.
We run now and next time Russians attack eastern NATO. Putin already considers NATO a bluff.
We run again? Of course, we cant escalate after all, and who cares about some eastern members.
Then he takes Germany and France.
Run again? Sure, who likes Europeans anyway, we cant escalate.
See where it goes?
If Russians really want to start a nuclear offensive war, then so be it last day of human kind.


Ukraine is not NATO. The Baltics are NATO. The Baltics should be defended at any cost. Ukraine should be defended at reasonable cost, and the threat of nuclear war is not reasonable.

Russia has proven completely incapable of occupying Ukraine. They've instigated the first mass mobilization in decades in a desperate effort to hold the current front-lines. Talk about "[taking] Germany and France" is the stuff of fancy. The Russian army would driven back by the Poles on their own.
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Sep 30 2022 12:28pm
Quote (Ironfister @ 1 Oct 2022 02:23)
There are very bad things going on in Ukraine.
Russians torture Ukrainians, murder many of them, kidnap them, take their ids and send to some, usually freezing, remote locations deep in Russia. starve them, terroristic bombard their cities, forcefully mobilize them into their own army or otherwise make them work for occupants.
All of this in Europe, next to EU and NATO borders.
These are terrible things, all the decent people shouldnt accept it.


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Sep 30 2022 12:29pm
Quote (Santara @ Sep 30 2022 08:00pm)
I didn't see anything in there that could lead me to that inference.

Quote
Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked.


Quote
Article 5

“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Clear enough to me, as a defensive alliance, NATO isn't seeking countries with ongoing conflicts because article 5 could be triggered by that country which would make NATO an offensive alliance.

This post was edited by babun1024 on Sep 30 2022 12:29pm
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Sep 30 2022 12:41pm
Quote (babun1024 @ Sep 30 2022 02:29pm)
Clear enough to me, as a defensive alliance, NATO isn't seeking countries with ongoing conflicts because article 5 could be triggered by that country which would make NATO an offensive alliance.


If NATO admitted Ukraine, and recognizes Ukraine along its official borders (as it does), then that would make it a defensive war. I agree, though, that admitting Ukraine must mean either war or cession of the occupied territories.
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Sep 30 2022 12:51pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Sep 30 2022 08:41pm)
If NATO admitted Ukraine, and recognizes Ukraine along its official borders (as it does), then that would make it a defensive war. I agree, though, that admitting Ukraine must mean either war or cession of the occupied territories.

That was the actual plan before Putin attacked. Ukraine is seeking to get the maximal possible ground back before a peace treaty. Then the integrity of its borders would be guaranteed by a NATO membership. Putin is doing strange things right now. He annexed territories he doesn't fully control :lol:

This post was edited by babun1024 on Sep 30 2022 12:52pm
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Sep 30 2022 01:26pm
Quote (babun1024 @ Sep 30 2022 01:29pm)
Clear enough to me, as a defensive alliance, NATO isn't seeking countries with ongoing conflicts because article 5 could be triggered by that country which would make NATO an offensive alliance.


You had claimed that "1st requirement to join NATO is the country is not allowed to be in an ongoing conflict."

That's what I'm asking for: documents that show a requirement that a new admission not be engaged in a war.
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